Synopsis: In a chilling exploration of our political landscape, “War Game” scrutinizes what could happen if January 6 happened again, featuring veterans and officials discussing the alarming trend of former service members joining extremist groups. Estamos preparados para otra insurrección? El nuevo documental "War Game" explora las lecciones del 6 de enero y el papel de los veteranos en la política extrema. No te lo pierdas. Description: What if January 6 happened again? Are we prepared for another post-election insurrection? “War Game” is a political thriller that tackles this question head-on in what Rolling Stone calls, “the scariest documentary you’ll see this year.” Laura’s joined by the directors and producer of the war game inside the film. Plus a commentary on Donald Trump’s appearance at New York’s Madison Square Garden. Guests: • Tony Gerber: Co-Director & Writer, War Game • Janessa Goldbeck: CEO, Vet Voice Foundation; Game Producer, War Game • Jesse Moss: Co-Director, Writer & Producer, War Game Full Conversation Release: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offer to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation. The following is from our episode "Another January 6 Insurrection?: 'War Game' Film Asks if We’re Ready." These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our member supporters. Become a supporting member at https://LauraFlanders.org/Donate
Full Description: What if January 6 happened again? Are we prepared for another post-election insurrection? “War Game” is a riveting political thriller that tackles this question head-on in what Rolling Stone calls, “the scariest documentary you’ll see this year.” “War Game” features a cast of senior officials war-gaming a constitutional crisis, including former North Dakota Senator Heidi Heitkamp, playing a senior advisor to a newly elected President, Retired US Army Lieutenant General Jeffrey Buchanan and Janessa Goldbeck, a Marine Corps veteran and the CEO of Vet Voice Foundation. This time on Laura Flanders & Friends, Laura’s joined by Goldbeck who also produced the war game that is at the center of the film as well as the film’s directors, Tony Gerber and Jesse Moss, both of whom are award-winning filmmakers. Together they discuss why many Americans — disproportionately military veterans — have joined domestic extremist groups, and what can be done. What reforms to the Insurrection Act are necessary at this moment? All that, plus a commentary from Laura on Donald Trump’s appearance at New York’s Madison Square Garden.
“. . . Domestic extremist groups, particularly on the far Right, have been targeting veterans and military family members for recruitment . . . We've seen veterans and active duty military disproportionately represented in places like the January 6 insurrection in 2021, where one in five of the people who were charged in the insurrection were actually military veterans.” - Janessa Goldbeck
“The notion that democracy is this sort of idyllic perfect thing that was once great and will be great again is a complete fabrication. Democracy has always been flawed, it's always been in process . . . There's got to be certain issues that we can all agree on, like the peaceful transfer of power.” - Tony Gerber
“[In the war game], we see a healthy politics model, people who probably disagree on a lot of things politically, but actually agree on one important thing, which is safeguarding our democracy . . . I think modeling healthy politics is really valuable today. It's hard to look around and see how people are working together across partisan divides to get work done on Capitol Hill or in state houses.” - Jesse Moss
Guests:
• Tony Gerber: Co-Director & Writer, War Game
• Janessa Goldbeck: CEO, Vet Voice Foundation; Game Producer, War Game
• Jesse Moss: Co-Director, Writer & Producer, War Game
• Political Violence & MAGA Militancy: Strategies to Protect Democracy Watch / Podcast + Uncut Full Conversation
• Congressman Jamie Raskin On January 6th: After a Failed Coup, a Successful One? Watch / Podcast + Uncut Full Conversation
• Community Safety in a Time of Insurrection: Watch / Podcast
• Graphic Artists Drawing Comix At The Margins: Nate Powell and Mohammad Saba’aneh Watch / Podcast
• ‘War Game’ Is the Scariest Documentary You’ll See This Year, by David Fear,August 2, 2024, Rolling Stone
•. The Posse Comitatus Act Explained, by Joseph Nunn, October 14, 2021, Brennan Center
• Legal experts worry about presidential abuse of the Insurrection Act. Here’s Why, by Carrie Johnson, March 28, 2024, NPR-WAMU
• ‘Mischief and problems’: rightwing activists ramp up drive to hand-count ballots, by Rachel Leingang, The Guardian
Full Episode Notes are located HERE. They include related episodes, articles, and more.
LAURA FLANDERS & FRIENDS
ANOTHER JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION?
'WAR GAME' FILM ASKS IF WE’RE READY
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NARRATOR: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on public TV and community radio, we offer to you, our members and podcast subscribers, the full uncut conversation. The following is from our episode centered on the film war game that asks if we're ready for another January 6th insurrection. These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our member supporters.
LAURA FLANDERS: What if January 6th happened again worse? Are we prepared for another post election insurrection? That question is not just top of mind because the results of another election will soon need to be certified, but also because there are threats coming from the same man who egged on the violence last time that he will call out the National Guard, even the military to quote handle his enemies in the context of this election. There's also a Department of Homeland Security threat assessment that warns that domestic violent extremists pose a significant physical threat, especially if their preferred candidate loses. And finally, there's Trump's former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, retired army general Mark Milley, who now calls him a, quote, total fascist, the most dangerous person to this country. Suffice to say, if we were poorly prepared last time, there is every reason to believe that we should be extra prepared now. And are we? A 2024 film takes up this question to chilling effect. It features an all star cast of senior officials war gaming a scenario in which there is another insurrection. Here's a clip.
LAURA FLANDERS: That was a clip from the film War Game. It featured former North Dakota senator Heidi Heitkamp playing senior adviser to a newly elected president, retired US army lieutenant general Jeffrey Buchanan playing a military commander, and one of today's guests,Janessa Goldbeck. Janessa is a marine corps veteran and the CEO of Vet Voice Foundation. She also produced the war game that is at the center of the movie. And with us, the film's directors, Tony Gerber and Jesse Moss, both of whom are award winning filmmakers. Welcome everybody. These are such hard times to be asking this question, but I'll ask anyway. How are you feeling about this election? What is top of your mind? Tony, let's start with you.
TONY GERBER: Oh, I'm feeling so much anxiety, to be perfectly honest. You know, every waking minute, it's sort of, like a weight that's that's that's on my on on on my shoulders. I I you know, having gone deep into this subject with this film, has sort of gotten us out on the road. It's gotten us into red states and purple states. You know, I'm a little bit siloed in Brooklyn, New York. And, going to Milwaukee, Wisconsin last week with the film, I saw these MAGA attack ads for the first time. And they scared the I won't say it on your air, but, you know, they scared the hell out of me. And you realize how siloed we are. Right? And, you know, these these attack ads also were just spewing paranoia and and lies, but it's unchecked, and it doesn't matter. Right? And that's the really terrifying thing.
LAURA FLANDERS:And what about you, Jesse?
JESSE MOSS: I'm scared. You know, our film has been called a horror film and the scariest movie of the year, and it it is scary. It looks at a scary prospect. Another insurrection, only worse. But, there's some very hopeful things about it. Meeting Janessa and her organization and the role players in this exercise actually filled me with some optimism, and I think we all need that.
LAURA FLANDERS: Oh, well, we're into that. I wanna hear more. But Vanessa coming I mean, Janessa coming to you, you're an army a a marine corps veteran. You've been in scary places. How how scared are you right here right now?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Well, I think all of the warning signs should scare every American who cares about and the continuance of our experiment and representative democracy in this country. You know, we have the leader of a major political party in this country and one of the 2 candidates, for president of the United States who has signaled that they will not accept the election results if they are not in his favor, has put out a policy document in project 2025 that outlines use of the active duty military to police the political rival, the cities and states that are governed by political rivals to use the active duty military to deport people who may be here illegally. Huge massive breaks in what we as American citizens expect from our democratically elected leaders and, the the military and our military civil relations. So, I'm very concerned about these, trends towards this authoritarian style of governance in this country, and that people aren't necessarily taking it seriously or seriously as they should, which is one of the major reasons why we did this project in the first place.
LAURA FLANDERS: Well, let's talk about that and sticking with you, Janessa. The that voice foundation was behind this war game scenario.Can you talk about what brought it about and what you were hoping to achieve?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Absolutely. Well, That Voice Foundation, first of all, is a 501c3 nonpartisan, nonprofit organization. We represent about a 1,000,000 and a half. That's in milli military families across the country. And our mission is to elevate their voices in our democracy and ensure that issues impacting our community are being talked about at the highest levels of power. One of our chief concerns over the last few years has been the rise of domestic extremism here in the United States, and in particular, the fact that domestic extremist groups, particularly on the far right, have been targeting veterans and military family members for recruitment. Because veterans are one of the last groups in American society that have cross partisan respect and appeal, our voices carry a lot of weight in our society. And so we've seen veterans and active duty military disproportionately represented in places like the January 6th insurrection in 2021, where 1 in 5 of the people who were charged in the insurrection were actually military veterans. That is far, vastly disproportionate to our share of American society. So we as an organization and as a community wanted to take a harder look at this problem. There was a op ed written in The Washington Post by 3 retired generals that called out the issue of extremism in the active duty forces and called on the administration to do such a war game, a tabletop exercise to examine what would happen if we had another contested election in this country. But this time, the losing candidate called on people in uniform to help them take power. And that that is exactly what we decided to do as an organization.
LAURA FLANDERS: And then you, Tony and Jesse, you turned that tabletop war game into, what's being hailed as the best political thriller of the year. What did you bring to that table, Tony?
TONY GERBER: Well, you know, we are, observational documentarians. So, you know, we didn't invent anything. You know? This the the folks around the table, the scenarios, the emotions were all real. What we brought to it was some shaping. Right? We also took 6 hours. The exercise itself was 6 hours long. Our film is, you know, is is 94 minutes. So, you know, there were there were some real filmmaking that had to happen, but the goods were brought by these folks. They really went there. I mean, one of the things we did not know was how seriously will they take this exercise when there's cameras. Will they play to the camera? Will the camera freeze them up? And the cameras were nearly invisible. Right? These are non actors. We didn't cast them. Right? And, you know, it was it was chilling. It was chilling to say the least.
LAURA FLANDERS: And, Jesse, you really created one heck of a set. I mean, to to look at, you would assume you were. This action was happening in the situation. Well, that Did that affect the performance, do you think?
JESSE MOSS: I think so. I think when those role players who Janessa's organization recruited stepped into that room, they they felt the gravity of what they were engaged in in a new way. I think they knew conceptually what they were signing up for, but I think they they really brought everything to the table literally and figuratively. And for us, the audience and the filmmakers, it was like being invited into the White House situation room, not normally a space I'm invited into. And to really see someone, like governor Steve Bullock playing the president wrestle with this enormously consequential decision, I think Americans, audiences who watch the film, are become part of this conversation, and it's not a prescriptive film. I think it presents them with an enormously challenging scenario, and I think it leaves them with a lot to talk about.
LAURA FLANDERS: Janessa, when you and the foundation started this tabletop, war game as you described it, project 2025 hadn't been released. You didn't have Donald Trump as the nominee. You certainly didn't have him talking about calling out troops on the insider, the the enemy within. And yet you focused on the Insurrection Act. Can you, a, remind our audience what that is? And b, why did you focus there?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Certainly. Well, the Insurrection Act is an authority that lays with the president of the United States to deploy the National Guard or the active duty military domestically. And in the past, it's been, used, principally to respond to things like natural disasters or hurricanes, but also to quell political violence, whether that is at in Waco, Texas or, after the during the Rodney King demonstrations in Los Angeles. And so we've seen, over the years, this power and authority evolve. It it it over the years, certain checks and balances have been stripped out of it. So the decision whether or not to deploy it, really rests with the executive and the executive alone. And we know that there are a lot of incredible groups out there in the protect and strengthening democracy space that are working, looking at some of the recommendations made by, in project 2025 or by the far right to move towards a more authoritarian vision of America, placed in the led both in the legislative and the judicial, and in the executive branch. But what we really hadn't seen a lot of was, a lot of attention being paid to the Insurrection Act in particular. And given, our community of veterans and military families, we felt like this was a very strong and potentially dangerous power for the executive to have, And we wanted to invite Americans into the conversation about what it is, how it could be used, how it's been used in the past, and what to be on the alert for as, the months progress, and we we head towards this next election and and certification of the election. So that was very motivating to us. We really took the time to both look at how it's been used in the past and what the impact has been. And you see that, coming to the table, folks like general Wes Clark, former, supreme command supreme allied commander of NATO, a 4 star general, folks like senator Heidi Heitkamp and senator Doug Jones who have wrestled with some of these real issues in the real world in their decades of experience, and are bringing that to bear in the conversations had in the film.
LAURA FLANDERS: And we should say that in the film and in the war game, the distinction is that some of the military are possibly siding with the insurrectionists.
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Right.
LAURA FLANDERS: And that didn't happen.
JANESSA GOLDBECK: I think it's really important to to mention that, you know, I'm I'm a marine veteran. I served as a combat engineer officer in the in the United States Marine Corps. We believe fundamentally that the vast majority of the military and veterans will do the right thing, that have that they have sworn it of to protect and defend the constitution. And but we are very concerned when the Department of Homeland Security, puts out a report. It puts out a report after report that says we have a domestic extremism problem within the United States military. And so we thought who better than to raise this issue up the flag to ensure people were demanding accountability from their elected officials and their leaders, on what they're doing to address this problem. And that's why we felt so strongly that, organizing this war game and this tabletop was the right thing to do. No.
LAURA FLANDERS: I I strongly encourage people to see the film, and it is available for people to see around the country. There's the making of the film. There's the getting it reviewed, getting it attention, but you're using it in person at screenings in important places. And, Tony and Jesse, I'd love you to talk about the the screening that I think you recently had in Pennsylvania. Was it Redding, Tony?
TONY GERBER: No. We are in Lehigh Valley, and, governor Josh Shapiro came out and and and and, joined us in a conversation about the film, and it was extraordinary, and the house was packed. And there were a lot of young people there. That was the thing that was so encouraging for me. I like to call the film a provocation for a conversation. In many ways, people people see this film and they stick around the theater for an hour afterwards. Theater managers have to escort them out. So there's it's as if we as a nation had no idea that we needed to have this conversation, but there's a genuine, genuine need. You know? And, and and and in a sense, when we come together in in a screening room to see this movie, we are community. Right? And and there's something about the film that that has the capacity to transcend political differences. And the way that you have folks around the table of different political beliefs, different parties, the film has a capacity to bring people together in conversation. And and that's something I feel very proud of. And and I hope that even if people see it on streaming, and it's now available on Apple and and on Amazon Prime, see it with other folks. Talk about the film. Engage on social media. Leave posts. Wait for responses. Engage in conversation.
LAURA FLANDERS: Jesse, if you've been there for those screenings, are there any stories you wanna share, questions you've been asked afterwards, or observations that they made.
JESSE MOSS: Well just to follow-up on Tony, what the Insurrection Act is not a partisan issue. It's evergreen, really regardless of the election outcome. I think it's something that more Americans need to understand, our relationship with the military and that civil mil military relationship that Janessa talked about. The film is also it's a it's a document of improvisational theater. You know, for us as storytellers and filmmakers, it's really exciting to film this event.
And, I think what we're experiencing and what Tony talked about is when an audience, a live audience, comes together to appreciate the film in a theater, they're sort of completing that experience. And and we all have been to the theater, and we know what that's like. And I I think that, that's what we've discovered in these conversations and these screenings is an audience experience in the film sort of completes that understanding of the work as capturing, well, it's a documentary about the future, which I love too. That's a kind of paradoxical concept, but but it also is a really unusual and kind of thrilling work of theater and and of art and and of politics. And I think the fusion of the these things is what made it exciting for us to capture as filmmakers and to partner with Janessa and her organization to share the film around the country.
LAURA FLANDERS: Janessa, there's a moment in the film that we're discussing War Game in which you get a text from your dad. Do you wanna remind us what that text says, and and has he seen the film yet?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Yeah. So a little context. My my father is a big believer in the QAnon conspiracy theory. He is a a big Trump supporter, and, that has been extraordinarily challenging, obviously, for for me as someone who spends a lot of time thinking about how conspiracy theories and disinformation are tearing the fabric of our society apart. But my dad and I, really love each other, and, you know, it's it's it can be very challenging. I'm not saying it's, you know, all hunky dory around the dinner table all the time, especially when some of his political beliefs, I feel directly impact my safety and liberties, as an individual in this country. But, he has seen the film. We watched it together a few months ago, and he actually really enjoyed it. He didn't agree with all of the sort of analysis of what led to January 6th or what actually happened on that day. But he really enjoyed having a, 1st row seat to real world decision makers processing information, conflict, muddling through a myriad of different things that might be real or might be disinformation, and seeing how those conversations played out. His actually, his favorite character in the film is senator Heidi Heitkamp. He loved her decisiveness even though I don't think they would agree on that on a lot politically.
LAURA FLANDERS: Coming back to you, Tony, In terms of the impact of the film, you you've said it doesn't make a particular case, but it does have a message. How would you put your how would you characterize that?
TONY GERBER: Yeah. I I would I would say that our film is a rallying cry for reasoned leadership. What you see in this 94 minutes is process. You see democracy at work. Right? The notion that democracy is this sort of idyllic perfect thing that, you know, was once great and will be great again is a complete fabrication. Democracy has always been flawed. It's always been in process. And I think that that's what we need to double down. We need to circle the wagons. And and there's gotta be certain issues that we can all agree on, like the peaceful transfer of power, for Pete's sake. You know? And and so I I think that that's one of the messages of the film. And the reason that some folks find it scary because you see Steve Bullock as this very reasoned, measured president. He listens. He listens to all of his advisers. He doesn't jump to conclusions. He's not led by ego. He's not worried about how he's going to appear around the table.Right? And and I think that even though Trump is not the subject of our film, he's the off screen presence. He's the boogeyman of nightmares that's not mentioned in the film, but the audience brings him into the room. Right? And so the thing that I think makes the film scary is imagining that guy in that seat, and that is terrifying.
LAURA FLANDERS: The other thing that's terrifying, Jesse, coming to you is that you make the film, there's 2 sort of two fronts to the conflict. There's the, you know, on the ground, what's happening in the states, what's happening in Washington DC insurrection, but there's also this kind of, online virtual reality that you're having to deal with of, of, of insurrectionists sending out fake messages and deep fake videos. And one can only assume that the ability to do that has gotten a lot worse or better depending on how you look at it, even since the film was made. So how are you feeling about that today?
JESSE MOSS: Absolutely. That I don't wanna spoil anything in this story in the film, but but you do see that these opponents, the White House and the insurrectionist force in the film, are are really playing with a different skill set. And certainly, when it comes to using the on online information space, we see misinformation. We see propaganda. We don't we don't even see what we all see now, which is AI generated content and state actors using these tools to destabilize our democracy. Like Janessa and her organization have a very complex scenario, but they had to draw some boundaries around you know, how much they could bring into this event over 6 hours. And I think we all know what we're dealing with as a country, and we see that, we all of us have have our work cut out for us if we are to, to wrestle these tools and and and and ensure that that our process, certainly the peaceful transfer of power and the potential for, an insurrection are are not, accelerated or fully destabilized by more misinformation, more propaganda, on social media. And we do see the White House trying to sort of shut down some of these systems. It's kind of interesting to see, and, and we'll see what this election brings.
LAURA FLANDERS: Hi, lovely listeners. Laura Flanders and Friends is, as we say, the place where the people who say it can't be done take a back seat to the people who are doing it. Our guests are doing it. Now we just want to thank you, our member supporters, for doing your part. All of you who have yet to become members, please do it. Join our community today by making a one time donation or make it monthly at lauraflanders.orgforward/donate. That's lauraflanders.orgforward/donate.
NARRATOR: Thank you. And a reminder to hit that subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts, and thank you. Now back to our full uncut conversation from our episode centered on the film War Game that asks if we're ready for another January 6th insurrection.
LAURA FLANDERS: I mean, you play a a sort of scary character, but, Janessa, you also, are are the person saying, well, let's try this. Let's try that. And you're watching everything happening. What would you throw at the players today, that maybe you didn't have, when the film was when the game was being played out?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Yeah. I I certainly think turning up the dial on the disinformation and just misinformation space, as Jesse mentioned, you know, AI hadn't even really burst into the scene in the way it has now. I also think that we, we really were cautious when we designed this scenario knowing that it was going to be depicted on screen, down the line, not to put anything into the ecosystem that might inspire bad actors. Every inject that you see, meaning every twist and turn in the scenario, those are all they are all based on things that have already happened in our history, just all kind of smashed together, for one terrible day, and with the dial turned up just a notch. And I think when I it's turned up just a notch. And I think when I sit here today, almost 2 years after we first conceptualize the project, I do think that, the the expectation, is is a little bit greater in my mind that we will have election denialism from elected officials across the country, because, folks have run on basically being able to control election procedural boards that typically were, you know, box check, rubber stamps. But, basically, anywhere that they can try to find a way to insinuate legitimacy in the claim that the election was bogus. I am I am more concerned about that today than I was when we conceived of this project, especially because as an organization, one of the things we also do is a lot of impact litigation. We and get we get engaged, in the courts when we think veterans' rights are at stake. And we have seen just an an onslaught of lawsuits from the Trump campaign and the RNC, trying to disenfranchise voters who vote by mail, which really impacts veterans and overseas military voters. Just this week, the Trump campaign has filed a lawsuit in Pennsylvania challenging the authority of the state of Pennsylvania to count overseas military ballots that are cast by people serving in uniform, in conflict zones, in harm's way, today. So, you know, that that's just an unprecedented assault on the rights of Americans to express their values and views at the ballot box. And I think, I a couple of years ago, I wouldn't have believed that we're in the place we're in now.
LAURA FLANDERS: Tony, anything you'd add?
TONY GERBER: Yeah. I mean, it's terrifying. And the idea that candidate Trump considers himself, you know, the great defender of the American people, that he's trying to disenfranchise voting active duty military. I I mean, it's people need to know that. They need to they need they need the means to fact check on the fly, really. You know, Janessa has this expression that I love, regarding disinformation and misinformation. And that's you know, if you know, it's as if there's Fentanyl in our drinking water. And if that were the case, the government would do something about it. And that's the state we're in. It's as if there's Fentanyl in our drinking water.
LAURA FLANDERS: Doesn't sound good. But it does speak to this question of addiction. And I and I wanna come back to you, Janessa. Addiction is just one of the challenges that the return the returning vets, actual real life returning vets like your colleagues, have struggled with. Also, suicidal tendencies, suicidal depression, feeling that they were at a loss, that they aren't appreciated. When we were doing reporting into, survivalist groups that played a role in January 6th in North in North Carolina for an episode that we did. I spent a lot of time on the dark web listening to them and and discovering and even in the very alive web, the very above ground web, that one of the approaches survivalists and insurrectionist groups make is by simply listening to the grief and sadness and trauma really of those veterans. So has anything changed in light of what we've seen, when it comes to caring for returning vets, physical, mental health, and just their loneliness?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Well, first of all, thank you for your reporting on that. That is a tough place to be to listen, and observe firsthand some of those conversations. I I really think that our country for many years, did not prioritize veterans and particularly combat veterans returning from overseas. We have seen some strides in the last 4 years, with the passage of the PACT Act, which now expands veterans health care to millions of previously ineligible vets, so that they can enroll and get the mental and physical health care that they so desperately need. And and that is thanks to the Biden administration really prioritizing that issue, and working with congress to get that over the finish line. But a lot remains to be done. And I think one of the things that is very important to highlight is that every problem that exists in the military and the veterans community also exists in our broader society. It is a reflection of our broader society. Loneliness and isolation have been called an epidemic in the United States by the United States surgeon general for the first time in history. You see that even though we have these devices and access to the to the web and social media, we are more disconnected and more siloed off from our neighbors and from people who have different backgrounds than ever before. And I think that when these groups know that there are veterans who are returning from service or stepping out of uniform, who may feel very disconnected and alienated from civilian life, they become a very, you know, soft target for recruitment efforts. And I think that when we think about the issue of extremism and divisiveness, you know, there are folks who are so far down the rabbit hole that it would take a lot to to get them out. But there are many, many people who are curious, who are on the bubble as Elizabeth Newman, who's a homeland security official, playing a homeland security official in the war game film, says, you know, it's the people on the bubble who are considering dabbling in this in this ideology that we really have an opportunity to reach. And that's why a film like this is so important because it is a, as Tony said, a provocation for a conversation. It is a way into the conversation that that is very challenging and very loaded and fraught for a lot of people. One of the things that happens to me the most when we are, screening the film across the country is people come up to me afterwards and they say, I have someone in my family who, you know, believes in things that I can't even imagine they they believe are real, and I don't know how to talk to them or it's impaired my relationship or we don't see each other anymore. And that is, really dangerous for our society, and it's really sad for for us as a as a as a country. And so I hope that this film can help inspire more of those tough conversations between people who do love each other deep down, but might just find themselves living in completely different realities.
LAURA FLANDERS: All right. So we need reasoned leaders. We need more care in our community, especially to vulnerable folks. Jesse, what else do you come away from this experience believing that we need? I'm thinking institutionally. What do you need or wish was in place today? And then we'll ask the big question. Is it?
JESSE MOSS: Well, I think we see it in the war game. We we see a healthy politics model, people who probably disagree on a lot of things politically, but actually agree on one important thing, which is safeguarding our democracy. And they're working together through this problem. And, we get to see those disagreements and arguments within the war game itself, but, but they share a common purpose. And I think the war game itself is not naive, and it's not sentimental, but I think modeling healthy politics is really valuable today. It's hard to look around and see that, see how people are working together across partisan divides to get, you know, work done, on Capitol Hill or in state houses.So I think that's a value to model to show, beyond what, you know, Tony also talked about good government and sort of decision making.
LAURA FLANDERS: And what about institutional change and reform? I mean, Janessa, in the, war game, you have one of the veterans playing an insurrectionist sounding very, very skeptical that any of the most important changes that are needed to avoid such a scenario as they're considering in the game be avoided. He doesn't sound confident at all. Are you?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: He's he's not and, neither am I. Because right now, this problem, we haven't even come to consensus politically that this is a problem. There have been several hearings, in Congress addressing the issue of extremism in the military where members of the right have stood up and said, it's offensive to even suggest that there might be folks in uniform who, subscribe to, you know, acceleration as a destruction as a ideology. And the the reality is that we as veterans are looking at the facts. We see you know, the the Department of Homeland Security is notoriously not a woke agency. This is an agency that is has in mind what are threats to our country domestically, and they have repeatedly sounded the alarm on this. And yet it is still such a partisan polarizing issue that we we haven't been able the Pentagon has not been able to take serious action on it. Additionally, we haven't seen real accountability, for folks who have perpetuated these conspiracy theories, who have who have called for violence. There has been some, but not all. I mean, the fact that president president Trump is still the top of the Republican ticket speaks volumes. And, you know, I all of the things that I said before, you know, care for veterans, care for people in our society who are vulnerable, having empathy, and modeling healthy democracy, all of those things are important. But without accountability for people who are pushing to undermine or or destroy our democracy, we are still going to be, in need of some serious action.
LAURA FLANDERS: Tony, coming to you. I mean, one wonders, if the changes we needed had been had been put in place years ago, even just the question of attention to the question of domestic, extremist violence, where we would be today. And then as I think about that, I think, well, in 2,008, Barack Obama's homeland security, chairperson did look into that very question. And her preliminary report, I think it was Janet Napolitano's report was released prematurely. You had an outcry from the right, and the whole thing got squashed. One can only imagine that it will be as hard for, Harris, Walt's administration, to look at this seriously as it was for Obama, if not more difficult politically.
TONY GERBER: Very difficult. Yeah. I mean, we're at a point that we can't even agree on language. Right? What do we call the insurrectionists? Are they political prisoners? Are they tourists? You know? I mean, it's it's deeply upsetting. What does give me hope is, you know, the the conscience of young people in our country. Right? And, you know, one of one of the electorates that that that I'm most concerned about are young folks who have been out on college campuses, you know, speaking their minds and protesting for what is morally right. Okay? But who feel that our 2 party system is so broken that, that they're not gonna bother voting. I think there are a lot of these young people. And I guess, you know, to my mind, it's it's it's not about overnight solutions. It's not about, an easy fix, but it's about baby steps. It's about engaging. It's about working to change what's broken from the inside.
JANESSA GOLDBECK: An old there's back on oh, sorry, Tony. I didn't mean to cut you off.
TONY GERBER: Yep.
JANESSA GOLDBECK: I was just gonna say, you know, I I am I too am inspired by young people who are out there mobilizing, who are organizing, who are working to change the outcome of this election. But I, as a person who is, I guess, perfectly middle aged, I turn 40, next year, I could say that, you know, I I work in politics. I I know who who controls the electorate. And the reality is it's people mostly over the age of 55 who will have the greatest impact on this election. And I think that it is, sure, we should give the younger generations their due, but it's not on them to save our democracy. It's all of us. And I would, really encourage voters who may have folks in their families or their networks or their communities who are you know, they're shying away from talking to, to really spend the next few weeks, having those tough conversations because, every generation matters in the fight to save our democracy. But in particular, people who who who are part of communities deeply ingrained in them, who know their neighbors, who are able to pick up the phone or go to that church meeting or whatever it is and have those tough conversations, it's on all of us.
LAURA FLANDERS: Well, I'll see you on I mean, I'll I'll see you on an up you on. I mean, yes, it's on us, but we live in a society where the advantage to having a government is it helps us address our conflicts in a nonviolent way. So while we can have all the carefully curated conversations we like and bring as many of our friends and relations as I hope people will to see War Game, I still would like to see some institutional changes. You wanna name some? And who wants to name some that we need? Let's start with you, Janessa.
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Yeah. Absolutely. And I certainly wasn't, trying to, suggest that conversation was gonna get us through this. I was, more talking about actions ahead of the next election. But although we'd love to If we have one. Right. Exactly. But a couple of things. You know? I I think, there is a, a bipartisan effort, that is led by a number of legal scholars, to reform the Insurrection Act, to actually bake back in some of the congressional checks and balances that would still preserve the president's authority to deploy, the active duty military or National Guard, but allows for at least some conversation amongst elected, democratically elected leaders, and and some accountability there. That's 1. 2nd is, allowing the Pentagon to, pursue some of the very basic actions that it does in screening for new recruits that most Fortune 500 companies do, like scrubbing someone's social media, ensuring that they, you know, don't have a presence in the dark web or haven't posted Neo Nazi propaganda on their Facebook page. We don't even have those simple steps, set in place yet. And the third thing is really investing in caring for American people. Now I know that's gonna sound a little squishy, but hear me out. You know, we we talk about all the time about the mental health crisis in this country. We've talked about the isolation epidemic. The the reality is when people are struggling, when they're hurting, when they can't make ends meet, they seek community, and they seek help in the places they can find it. And when we deny Americans a basic right to health care, when we deny Americans, you know, the basic rights to be able to be housed, to afford housing. All of these things contribute to the, the, sort of appeal of extremist groups and of of these extremist ideologies. And they they really weaponize the grievance people feel that their government has let them down. So I think that institutionally, it isn't just about dealing with the aftermath of when people are radicalized or have already subscribed to this, but it's about building a society that actually takes care of its citizens, and provides people with opportunity.
LAURA FLANDERS: We've done reporting from Idaho where our colleagues have tracked how there is an increase in support for paramilitary organizations and militia in the places where the domestic violence hotline, for example, has gone you know, been cut after 5 PM or when there's no more police service, that runs 247. Jesse, do you have a hit list of things you'd like to see?
JESSE MOSS: I'm favor of the squishy I am. I was encouraged just recently, a few weeks ago, the House Armed Services Committee did conduct a hearing on extremism in the military. There were some army brass who were there to testify. They actually, staff on that committee had seen our film and were, I think, informed by the conversation. And, obviously, we we have a very, divided congress, hard to get legislation passed, but I think it I'll start with having a hearing now on the topic. I think that's a way of moving the ball down the field. That was encouraging to see. I think, you know, Janessa's organization has been running state level exercises to to look at some of these weaknesses that you see exposed in our war game. And I think and she mentioned these local election boards. And I think, you know, we also we're talking about where these governors and these senators who are around the White House situation room table on our film, but we know that democracy lives and dies at the local level too. And that's a place where you, an individual without much power, can actually if you put your mind to it, you can build a little power and you can raise your voice. And those community meetings are places where our democracy will, die or survive. And it's that's those are spaces that we can be active in and our voices will be heard.
LAURA FLANDERS: And voices not holding pitchforks and, lit tapers, one one hopes. Tony, we have a closing question that I ask everybody on the show, but I encourage you to elaborate as much and as long as you want, where we kind of consider how the future we'll talk about now. You said you were in the business of making documentaries on of the future. What do you think will be the story that the future tells of this moment?
TONY GERBER: Gosh. Wow. That's that's a good question. I think it's a singular moment. You know? And, what will the future what will the conversation be about this moment in time? Look. You know, we haven't even mentioned what's happening to the planet. We haven't even mentioned, the climate crisis. You know?
And and I do think that that is one of the greatest social justice issues of our day. And it all comes back to reasoned leadership, doesn't it? You know? So, you know, I I I think everything. And and the climate crisis, I think, is is right up there for me. But reasoned leadership is so critical. And I hope I hope we find a way to dodge the bullet, to, you know, right the ship, to turn turn the Titanic before we crash into the into the iceberg.
LAURA FLANDERS: All the metaphors become all too real. Jesse, anything you'd add? What's the future of the story? What's the story of the future will tell?
JESSE MOSS: I think you have to be an eternal optimist to make documentary films. And, certainly, a film like this one, which was an enormous leap of faith for us. So I I remain optimistic despite the sort of headwinds that we face and the shattering of norms that we've talked about, that we've all been living through. And despite the traumas that we carry, that we've talked about in different ways, you know, we're still making sense of January 6th. We're still whether we're, you know, veterans who are in our film who came back from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan and have taken that pain and sought treatment for it, but also put those feelings towards a good. So not again, not to be sentimental here, but, I maybe it's, denial, but I I I have optimism, that when we look back on this moment that we rose to the occasion, we rose to the test, and I think that that we've done the very you know, the least that we could do, which is to to put put forth something that we think is an important conversation for for Americans to be having. You know, there are things I can't do as a filmmaker, and Janessa and her organization do incredible political and legislative work. I I we can't do that. I we can tell a good story, and I think we tried to do that.
LAURA FLANDERS: Janessa, how do you answer the same question?
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Oh, well, I spent a a lot of time around the the world, in places that have much less than were afforded here in the United States. Before I served in the marine corps, I served as a human rights advocate working to protect civilians in conflict zones, places like Sudan and Myanmar. And so I've really seen, the worst of humanity, in in many places. And I think it's easy right now to feel deeply cynical and distressed about the challenges we face here in America. But, also, we have faced, extraordinary challenges as a country before, and people around the globe are facing challenges greater than I could even imagine at this very moment. So I hope that, you know, when you wake up in the morning and you look at the news and you see the crazy things that are being said or, the the the things that are happening that make you just feel sick to your stomach in our country, that you don't wallow that people don't wallow too long in that feeling of cynicism and despair because we do have a lot of agency. We do have a lot of power. Our voices do matter, and there is a lot here, worth preserving and protecting and growing. So, while I do feel nervous about the the coming election and and what's ahead for us as a country, I'm also optimistic and inspired by, the the people I see who are doing hard work every day in the trenches unsung, to ensure that our experiment in representative democracy continues.
LAURA FLANDERS: Janessa, Tony, Jesse, thank you so much. And I will just remind people of yet another episode from our archives, one from earlier this year where we interviewed experts on the question of political violence who pointed out that feelings aside, the actual data in this country is very small numbers of people either support or engage in any such thing. And our experts on that show also talked about what's been successful in other countries, in turning that around. I don't know how this story will end, neither did any of us, but thank you for provoking this conversation, all of you. I appreciate your work.
JANESSA GOLDBECK: Thank you so much for having us.
TONY GERBER: Thank you, Laura.
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