Synopsis: Local governments take a stand: Find out how people-powered movements can push back on federal overreach. Description: Guests Christopher Armitage and Sumathy Kumar are organizers and strategists with experience and plans for outmaneuvering MAGA at the state and municipal level. What’s possible when people take federalism seriously and partner with state officials to protect their constitutional freedoms — and elections — from being violated by the federal government? “We need to take power away from the Trump administration and from the GOP. That means taking that power and putting it locally . . . Being able to provide a good quality of life in an affordable environment for your residents is soft succession.” -Christopher Armitage Guests: • Christopher Armitage: Journalist & Policy Strategist; Substack, The Existentialist Republic; Author, Oppositional Federalism • Sumathy Kumar: Executive Director, Housing Justice for All & NY State Tenant Bloc Watch the episode released on YouTube; PBS World Channel 11:30am ET Sundays and on over 300 public stations across the country (check your listings, or search here via zipcode). Listen: Episode airing on community radio (check here to see if your station airs the show) & available as a podcast February 11th, 2026. Full Conversation Release: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offer to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation. Music Credit: 'Thrum of Soil' by Bluedot Sessions, 'Steppin' by Podington Bear, and original sound design by Jeannie Hopper Support Laura Flanders and Friends by becoming a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/lauraflandersandfriends
Synopsis: By leveraging federalism, activists are finding creative ways to outmaneuver the MAGA Right at the state and municipal level, from withholding funds to building affordable housing.
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Description: There are countless strategies for resisting authoritarianism — many of which we’ve discussed on this program. This time, we’re looking at ways to stop the MAGA Right using the power of cities and states. What’s possible when people take federalism seriously and partner with state officials to protect their constitutional freedoms — and elections — from being violated by the federal government? Our guests are organizers and strategists with experience and plans for outmaneuvering MAGA at the state and municipal level. Christopher Armitage is a U.S. Air Force veteran, former law enforcement officer, writer, and founder of “The Existentialist Republic” on Substack. He is the author of a handbook on “Oppositional Federalism”. Sumathy Kumar is the Executive Director of Housing Justice for All and the New York State Tenant Bloc. She was the former Co-Chair of the NYC Democratic Socialists of America and under her leadership, NYC-DSA elected six socialist legislators to the New York State Legislature, including mayor Zohran Mamdani. From withholding federal revenue to building social housing, hear the creative ways people and local governments can turn up the heat. All that, plus a commentary from Laura.
“We need to take power away from the Trump administration and from the GOP. That means taking that power and putting it locally . . . Being able to provide a good quality of life in an affordable environment for your residents is soft succession.” -Christopher Armitage
“Tenants are half the state in New York, they're 70% of the city . . . What I tell people is that you're not by yourself, you're with millions of other people who want this. It is scary to resist what's happening, especially when we see what ICE is doing, what the federal government is doing to people who stand up. But they are doing that because they are feeling threatened by the resistance . . .” - Sumathy Kumar
Guests:
• Christopher Armitage: Journalist & Policy Strategist; Substack, The Existentialist Republic; Author, Oppositional Federalism
• Sumathy Kumar: Executive Director, Housing Justice for All & NY State Tenant Bloc
Watch the episode released on YouTube; PBS World Channel 11:30am ET Sundays and on over 300 public stations across the country (check your listings, or search here via zipcode). Listen: Episode airing on community radio (check here to see if your station airs the show) & available as a podcast February 11th, 2026.
Full Episode Notes are located HERE.
Full Conversation Release: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offer to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation.
Music Credit: 'Thrum of Soil' by Bluedot Sessions, 'Steppin' by Podington Bear, and original sound design by Jeannie Hopper
Support Laura Flanders and Friends by becoming a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/lauraflandersandfriends
RESOURCES:
*Recommended book:
“Oppositional Federalism” by Christopher Armitage: *Get the Book
(*Bookshop is an online bookstore with a mission to financially support local, independent bookstores. The LF Show is an affiliate of bookshop.org and will receive a small commission if you click through and make a purchase.)
Related Laura Flanders Show Episodes:
• D.A. Larry Krasner Facing Impeachment: Criminal Justice Reform in the Crosshairs: Watch / Listen: Episode Cut
• Organizing for Gaza Ceasefire Through Policy & Protest: Meet JVP & NY Assemblymember Mamdani: Watch / Listen: Episode Cut and Full Uncut Conversation
• Overcoming the Housing Crisis: The Story of the Cooper Square Community Land Trust: Watch / Listen: Episode Cut
•. A Public Bank for Public Good: Watch / Listen
Related Articles and Resources:
• DSA’s Sumathy Kumar & the Socialists in Office Committee, by Stephanie Luce, August 20, 2021, Convergence
• The Cost-of-Living Crisis Explains Everything, by Annie Lowrey, November 11, 2024, The Atlantic
• It’s Time for Americans to Start Talking About “Soft Secession”, by Christopher Armitage, August 18, 2025, The Existentialist Republic
•. ICYMI: New analysis shows democratic AGS who sued protected their states’ public health funding, while GOP-led states lost out, August 28, 2025, Democratic Attorneys General Association
• New York law aims to stop funding of illegal Israeli settlements in West Bank, by Chris McGreal, May 17, 2023, The Guardian
•. What is The Montana Plan? Transparent Election Initiative
• Experts Say Blue States Can Stop Paying Federal Taxes, There’s Precedent, by Christopher Armitage, November 10, 2025, The Existentialist Republic
• Building “Mass Governance” in Zohran Mamdani’s New York City, by Sumathy Kumar and Gianpaolo Baiocchi, Jacobin Magazine
• Trump Lawsuit Against IRS Puts Him on Both Sides of the Same Case, by Richard Rubin, C Ryan Barber and Annie Linskey, February 1, 2026, The Wall Street Journal
0:00
123.
While our weekly shows are edited at a time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offered to our members and podcast subscribers the full, uncut conversation.
These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our member supporters.
0:24
Bombings and kidnappings and ICE related killings.
Courts issuing rulings the administration ignores.
The Supreme Court simply going along.
If you've been feeling that the crisis we're living in is way too big and the tools at our disposal way too small, well if you've been feeling that way, this special episode is for you.
0:45
My guests are going to lay out a different scenario.
Yes, the federal government is captured and the resident of the right White House is running amok.
Yes, worse could well be coming.
But something else is happening too.
One of my guests calls it the largest coordinated campaign of state level opposition in modern American history.
1:06
States are using the tools that they have in the federal system not just to resist, but actively to oppose what they say is wrong.
Some are considering new legislation that would add to that toolbox.
Organized people, meanwhile, are acting defiantly too, making clear demands, electing new, fresh leaders, and staying engaged in ways that could strengthen our democracy and our economy for all.
1:30
What happens next is crucially important, and that depends largely on what people believe can be done.
So let's get to it.
Christopher Armitage is the founder of the Existentialist Republic on Substack.
1:45
His handbook, Oppositional Federalism, offers a framework for what he calls soft succession.
Also three pieces of model legislation and much more.
Sumathy Kumar is the executive director of Housing Justice for All and the New York State tenant block, former Co chair of the New York City Democratic Socialists of America chapter.
2:07
Under her leadership, she saw six socialist legislators elected to the New York State Legislature, including Zoran Mamdani, who is now New York's mayor.
Could this time of cruelty and turmoil also be when we build new models and mechanisms for a more resilient and accountable future?
2:25
Well, just maybe.
So let's go to it.
The conversation is starting here.
Welcome both of you.
It is my great pleasure to have you.
I often find it helpful just to settle ourselves.
I've come from somewhere.
You've each come from somewhere to settle ourselves.
2:40
Right here in this moment, Who is uppermost on your mind, on your heart as we start to speak, Chris?
Well, I just got back from a week in Minneapolis and Renee, good that I visited the site for murder and that the way that that's impacted the entire community, that's that's at the top of my mind.
3:04
And it's really this, the story that's captured, captured in our tension in a way that really needs to be captured.
What about you, Samathi?
Definitely Renee Good and the people of Minneapolis who are fighting back, but also the people in New York City who are trying to build something new with, including myself.
3:28
And I just came from another press conference with tenants today fighting against their landlord, just named one of the worst landlords in the city.
And they're trying to build something that is hopeful and tenant LED at the same time that all of this is happening across the country.
3:47
Let's start with how where we are and how we got here.
And I'm going to start with Chris with you.
Chris, when you describe where we are to people, how do you describe it?
The.
United States has been taken over by a transnational criminal organization called the GOP.
Well, that's pretty straightforward.
4:05
How about you, Sumathy?
How do you describe it?
I think that's accurate.
I think there there are these two visions of what what Chris was just describing, basically a criminal organization that is stripping people of their of their wealth, of their dignity.
4:26
And then a different vision of what life could be like if if the government actually worked for people, if they'd actually put working class people 1st.
And we are seeing that.
The best example of that we're seeing is in New York City with the election of Zaran Mamdani.
4:42
Well.
You're alluding to the fact that this situation didn't just arrive overnight.
How would you describe some of the some of the threads that took us to right here?
So I think when we look at what happened in the 2024, a presidential election, we saw a lot of working class people vote in Trump because they believed that life would get better because for for years, Democrats hadn't been delivering anything for people to actually make their costs go down.
5:12
Meanwhile, housing prices are skyrocketing, Healthcare is out of control, groceries are too expensive.
And so people needed an alternative.
And so that has been building for a long time.
And we we see it's actually really simple to get out of this.
5:28
We just need to be talking about what people are actually going through and giving them solutions that the government can do to make their lives better, to make cost go down and to give people a dignity, dignified life.
And to stand up for them, I mean, Chris, that comes to you.
5:45
What would you add to that picture of how we got here and and how would you add your own story to that picture?
You have an interesting background in former military, former Police Department.
Yeah, absolutely.
I served in the armed forces for almost a decade and was a federal law enforcement officer for all that time.
6:04
My master's degrees in Homeland Security.
And I see the work that I'm doing now is continuing that work of defending the Constitution.
And there's no reason that pro affordability, universal healthcare, universal childcare, that these things aren't constitutional.
To me.
That's very originalist.
You're helping people support their ability to pursue life, liberty and happiness by making sure that we use every resource we can to give them the best life possible.
6:27
And so in this moment, how we got here is oligarchs, and I mean, just, you know, even to strip it of those terms, very wealthy, very powerful people, the haves throughout all of human history have always wanted to have more and more and more, and everybody else has to fight for power.
6:43
And that's part of the beauty of the American experiment is we were the first country that said we are going to work really hard to institute these incredible ideas of valuing human life and human dignity and mass and giving everybody keys to power rather than just a king.
6:58
So come staying with you, Chris, are people wrong out there who feel despair and hopelessness in this moment?
No, I would say give up hope but still fight that's I've I've been listening to some interesting Buddhist talks recently about how hope is actually not very helpful because it has to do with expectations.
7:18
I would do this work fighting fascism even if I knew with 100% certainty we would fail.
I do not believe that's true.
I do believe we can win, but I think you have to.
There's benefits emotionally from dis attaching ourselves from from the outcome and just saying, look, the job is fight fascism in every way we can as ethically, 100% ethically and build solidarity among the working class so that we can have a future that we're really proud of.
7:43
And Timothy, what's your background that you bring to this story and to this work?
So I've been organizing tenants in New York City and New York State for almost a decade.
And in New York, where we're facing, you know, the same crises but in a different sense.
8:03
And I've been trying to win power for working people for a very long time.
And so in, in fighting for tenants and talking to tenants about their homes, I've seen people who maybe have different politics than me come together with me, be part of the same movement because we have a shared goal of of winning lower rent, which is something everybody can get behind.
8:30
I've also been a member of the Democratic Socialists of America for a very long time, for 8:00 six years, and have worked with with that organization to build real power at the city and state level and a different kind of politics that articulates that life can be better for people and that the government has a role to play in in lowering people's costs, in making your life more simple and in standing up for you.
9:01
And so all of all of that has become more and more relevant as, as Saran Mandani has become mayor in New York City, as and as we've seen this horrific overtaking of the federal government and that kind of politics that life doesn't have to be based on, on hatred and division and cruelty.
9:26
And it can actually be about people coming together about your life just being easy and, and not so hard.
More and more people are getting attracted to that.
No the.
Could I, could I piggyback one thing on that?
So I, I'm huge fan of, of Mayor Mamdani.
9:44
And I think the, you know, the Republicans represent a nihilism.
They're the inherent philosophy that they promote is things can never get better.
And so they're just, you know, rats on the sinking ship.
But what Mamdani represents is this shift from hope to commitment.
10:01
We don't need hope.
We need commitment.
And so thanks for the work that you've done soon with me.
Well, I mean, the reason we've brought the two of you together is that, Chris, you're going to layout for us this vision that you've put out in your handbook of how states can mobilize the tools in their toolbox and maybe come up with some new ones to resist the federal authoritarian overtake that this Trump administration is attempting to accomplish.
10:30
The only way those states do that is when they have legislators who are willing to take those risks, and they only do it when there's people power behind them.
So that's how we're seeing this connected, this story connected.
That being said, for many, they hear the word secessionist, Chris, and they think of Southern strategies to defeat federal civil rights legislation.
10:53
When you use the term, what are you referring to and what is the history that goes beyond perhaps what many of us have remembered?
Well, I want to start by saying I really appreciate this question because it's one of my favorite to answer because for so many Americans, secession means defending racism, states rights means defending racism.
11:13
But there is no reason that we should lose the greatest tool that our founders gave us for fighting back against authoritarianism because states rights can protect reproductive rights.
It can make sure everybody has healthcare.
States rights can make sure that we have everything that we've been fighting for and struggling to win at the federal level.
11:30
We can have that at the state level and it doesn't have to be opposition because at the federal level there's a structural imbalance that makes it very easy to regress and very difficult to progress.
But at the state level, you can get a hold of your state representatives.
You can say we want universal single payer health care in this state.
11:48
That can happen where you have the most influence, and that's locally.
At the very local level, you've got mayors who are in charge of policing, among other things, and laws like New York's sanctuary law that are examples of, of using state and local power to resist federal power.
12:06
How are you seeing that working out, Timothy, and what are your expectations or your, your, I don't want to say demands, but what are you working with the mayor to accomplish on that front?
So exactly what what Chris was saying, this is an opportunity in New York City to, to build some of that alternative, to build structures that give people the things that they need even when the the federal government is stepping away and to work statewide to make sure that happens.
12:39
New York is a very progressive state.
We have the political power to do this if, if tenants and people across the state really push their elected officials to do it.
And so we're hoping 1, you know, we have a lot of billionaires in New York.
12:57
They could be paying a lot more money in taxes.
And if we did tax the rich in New York State, we would have money to to fill the gaps around Medicaid cuts, to fill the gaps around housing and and all the other things that are food stamps, things that are getting cut right now.
13:16
And so in that way, we really can step in this New York might be in a in a specific situation, but I think all states probably have some room to do this.
But to tax the rich is actually going to be our path to give people stability in order to to withstand the cuts and the violence that's coming from the federal government.
13:39
Mayor Mahdani, before he was mayor, when he was state Assemblyman, appeared on this program talking about his Not on Our Dime bill, which had to do with reining in charitable status benefits from businesses or charities that supported illegal settlements in the West Bank.
13:56
You have a model of using state level fiscal power and corporate benefit power in your toolkit, Chris, You want to lay out especially the Corporate Benefit Accountability Act, which seems to get out a whole lot of sins with one piece of legislation.
14:15
Absolutely.
I'm very happy to to talk about that.
The so originally I was reviewing the Montana plan, which many people are enthusiastic about, but the Montana plan is this act that's originated in Montana, but other states like Minnesota are looking on promoting it.
And it says if you incorporate your corporate incorporate in Montana, you can't contribute to political campaigns.
14:36
That benefits ExxonMobil, who isn't incorporated in Montana, but hurts the local bakery.
So I aimed to make something that could address overturning Citizens United at the state level.
So corporate means testing, corporate, corporate welfare is the heart of this act is we want to say, you know, SNAP, disability, any benefits you can think of for the working class, we're going to make sure that we means tested.
14:59
That's how the America's been doing it.
I don't love that, but we should apply that same principle evenly.
So if a corporation wants to receive our tax dollars, they want to see write offs, they want to receive subsidies, they want to receive grants, then they cannot be contributing to political campaigns.
That is a voluntary benefit and a voluntary action.
15:16
If you have the money to give to political action committees, then you do not need our tax dollars.
And that is oppositional federalism, which is another level above of soft secession by saying we are going to actively work against the unjust laws that have been decided at the federal level.
15:34
Timothy, is our legislation, particularly on the housing front that you think is a model that could accomplish some of the same?
Definitely.
I think that there's, you know, in New York, we have a lot of tenant protections and they give this stability for tenants that that people everywhere need.
15:55
So rent stabilization and rent control is like a model legislation that does give people basic stability, make sure that you can't get evicted for no reason.
You can, you know, girl, have a family, you can put down roots in an apartment and your rent increases are decided by a rank guidelines board that you have some influence over.
16:20
And so it gives people control over where they live and it gives them stability.
So if you saw landlords like some of the scofflaw landlords that you're now going after, giving political campaigns at the local or even at the state level, sounds like this kind of Corporate Benefit Accountability Act could help your cause.
16:43
Absolutely.
Landlords and real estate are notorious for giving a ton of money to political campaigns, for spending money on lobbying, for dropping thousands of dollars like against Zarin Mandani in this year's election.
17:00
And all of that money is going towards politics instead of making buildings better.
You know, that's that's our rent money that tenants are paying every every month that's going towards political contributions instead of fixing their faucet or making the heat go on or putting restoring gas to a building.
17:20
And so we're seeing the same landlords that are neglecting their tenants that are being called the worst landlords in the city are also landlords that gave thousands of dollars to Andrew Cuomo in the last election.
And that money needs to go back into buildings and needs to go to tenants and people's homes.
17:40
Another aspect of your model legislation, Chris, is this aspect that has to do with elections, and I want to come back to that and not forget to talk about it.
That's the state Fiscal Sovereignty Act, which gives would give states a certain amount of power to withhold funds for the federal government.
18:01
So sort of expand the model to withhold gun funds for the federal government if it doesn't obey election law.
How would that work?
It's interesting because again, this is another example of, of taking tools that Republicans have effectively used to try and take over and, and dismantle our, our functioning government and using those same effective tools to restore it.
18:23
And so this law was actually proposed by Republicans in three different state legislatures during the Obama administration.
And what it does originally, it just said the federal government is doing unconstitutional things.
So we're going to order all employers in state to divert their, their with federal tax withholdings to a, to an escrow account.
18:40
Yes, that opens up for liability.
The work that I've done on the model legislation at the Existentialist Republic creates funding for indemnity and protection from the legal protection from the state government for any actions taken against those businesses or those individuals in the state.
18:57
But also it it dilutes risk when the whole state does it and when multiple states do it and coordinate that response.
And so the idea is you order the employers 90 days, you have to start to, you have to meet the deadline to divert our funding.
19:13
This only happens when a red line is crossed.
We say there is a they can decide that where you want.
Now that model legislation I put out says if you try to cancel our elections or do not respect the results or send federal troops into our polling places without the explicit permission of our government and or mayor, then we will order all employers to stop sending tax dollars to you until our democracy is restored.
19:36
This is not an extreme measure.
This is actually a very rational, nonviolent response to the social agreement of the US Constitution being violated so extremely.
Do you have the path is the path of of prosecution?
19:55
And in New York State, we have a powerful Attorney General, Letitia James, who has used some of the states fraud statutes to go after Trump Inc, the Trump Corporation, and got herself indicted by the DOJ as a result.
20:12
Before we go to the question of what power exists in relation to the feds at the state and local level simply to arrest and to prosecute federal agents, let's hear some of the resistance that is out there because it's been pretty impressive.
20:29
Impressive.
Not just from Latricia James, who swore in Dora Mamdani as mayor, let's not forget, but also from from this guy, Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner.
Do you hear me, ICE agents?
Do you hear me, National Guard?
20:45
Do you hear me, military?
You're going to jail.
If you commit crimes in the city of Philadelphia, you will be accountable.
The law applies to all of you, and I know that there are honest, decent, moral law enforcement officers out there by the bushel, including an ICE.
21:10
This is not for you.
This is for any one of your colleagues who thinks they are above the law.
So you just saw Philadelphia DA Larry Krasner warning ICE agents that they will be arrested and prosecuted if they break the law, commit crimes in his city.
21:29
Coming to you, Chris.
And then I want to come to you something on the same question.
Does the DA actually have the power that he sounds like he has in that clip?
So the main thing I want to say, they're going to talk about qualified immunity, they're going to talk about supremacy clause.
21:49
If you commit a murder, you are can be arrested and charged locally.
And I think one of the important things about like because the conversation continues to get brought so often to is this legal?
And we need to bring it to the philosophical conversation that founded this country.
22:06
Is it just the law exists to serve justice, not the other way around.
And so we need to hold people accountable when they commit crimes locally.
And that includes police officers then you know, that includes anyone who commits.
It's that crime whether they're AUS senator, we should all be held to the same standards.
22:24
So coming to you, Timothy, if if the the the tenants and others who voted for this administration and support this AG see law breaking happening where they are and we've heard those officials declare that they will take action.
What do you all do if they don't take action?
22:43
Well, you know, we voted for those politicians.
You know, we voted for the mayor, we voted for the attorney general.
I think they, they need to see that popular support behind them so that they can do the brave and the right thing in that moment and, and be creative and be, you know, forceful on resisting what's going on at the federal level.
23:08
And so it's not all on them.
It can't be, we're just not going to to win that way.
It has to be about a mass movement that is demanding that our elected officials stand up, that our local electeds do what they can to resist.
23:26
And so I think, you know, the the attorney general, the mayor, the governor, they have their role, but everyday people also have a role to play in all of this.
It's about getting out on the streets, saying no to ice overreach.
23:42
And it's also about defending our neighbors in our homes, in our neighborhoods.
And seeing that popular support, I think will make our elected officials feel brave enough to to really stand against what's going on.
Is that what you mean by mass governance?
23:57
I saw you co-authored a piece in Jacobin magazine recently with that title.
Yes, I think mass governance to me is that we have to all work together to really build something that can get us out of this mess.
There are a lot of oppositional forces.
24:15
There's the real estate industry, there's the billionaires, there's the right wing MAGA forces all trying to to 0 in, especially on the mayor of New York City right now.
And he can't he can't do it alone and he shouldn't.
24:31
He won this election not by himself, but with thousands of people knocking on doors talking to their neighbors about about a different kind of vision for the city.
And now he needs to govern in the same way with thousands of people working with him to win taxes on the rich, which is how we will avoid austerity, how we will actually win the project and the the affordable city that we're fighting for.
25:00
He needs thousands of people to knock on doors about that, to call their legislators to go to Albany, our state capitol, to make sure that the legislature does its job.
And he needs thousands of people to talk to their City Council members.
He needs thousands of people to organize against their landlords and hold their landlords accountable.
25:19
And so all of this is about mass movement that's not just fighting on the outside, but actually working with a champion city government to deliver for people.
As you've heard, Chris, there are huge expectations in New York and in many other cities around the country, not only about resisting the authoritarianism, the fascism that is all around us, but building some new structures.
25:48
You've described some of what you're proposing as more than just a defensive wall in in how how so in, in what ways and what examples are out there of the kind of institutions that provide the sort of resilience and accountability that, let's face it, states are going to need if they're going to resist in the ways that you suggest?
26:11
We need to take power away from the Trump administration and from the GOP.
That means take Grant, taking that power and and putting it locally.
So the work that Sumathy's doing and the mayor Donnie's doing is crucial to that.
For example, being able to provide a good quality of life in an affordable environment for your residence is soft secession.
26:32
You're quietly taking care of business.
And if you disagree with something going on in the federal government, you ignore it until they make you do something about it.
And so that strategy it, it needs also, you know, to to again exploit something that the right has succeeded in doing.
26:50
We need to flood the zone with good policy that takes care of people you know, and and taxing the rich.
Absolutely part of that.
Also non tax revenue, being able to find ways to fund our government by bringing quality services to the public.
And that money goes into the public coffers rather than into CEOs, poppet pockets or back into lobbying politicians for the benefit of those organizations.
27:14
And so that that is the soft decision model of building resilience and taking care of your community and rooting out corruption.
That's the best way to fight fascism.
You should know the name of your state legislative representative.
You should know the name of your City Council representatives.
They should know your name, and they should know what you care about.
27:34
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27:51
Thank you.
We've been reporting, I should say, on New York State's effort to pass a public banking law for a long time.
The North Dakota public banking system is one that you lift up, Chris.
How does that help?
28:07
You know, the North Dakota Public Bank has been profitable for over 100 years.
It also weathered the 2008 financial collapse better than any other bank in the country.
It's because they're run by the state and they put that money back into the public coffers and they take better care of the people who go to the to the public bank than elsewhere.
28:26
And the conservatives in that state would not want to give it up because they know how good it is.
That's part of why, as someone who goes to the Department of Veterans Affairs, plenty of veterans complain about the VA, but they sure don't want it gone.
And so by providing things like public banking, we create these non tax funding mechanisms that provide quality public services.
28:44
And also we set a floor for standards, public housing.
You know, I, I, I, I want to see more conversations around that and how we can create a floor of expense, not just by requiring the private landlords to set, to set, you know, the, the rent limit, but also we're going to say, OK, we're going to buy this building.
29:05
We are going to set the minimum amount that we can charge tenants.
The state is going to run it or the city is going to run it and they will make a little bit of revenue so that we can cycle that back into the system.
And that model, the Vienna model, it not just low income housing, but high density urban housing for all income levels run by the city to fund local services.
29:26
What is Housing Justice for All actually working on at this moment?
Sumati.
We are working on creating a social housing development authority, you know, in that Vienna model in New York State that would both build new housing that people could actually afford and can control and take new take existing housing from landlords who aren't taking care of their buildings.
29:53
Obama don't want to take care of their buildings anymore, taking that renovating it and and giving it to the tenants to to live in.
And so that's what we're fighting for in New York.
It is one piece of the puzzle.
30:09
There's rent control.
It's so important.
It's broad based, it's universal or we're getting there.
And then there's social housing in the building of housing that is actually deeply affordable, permanently affordable, and that you have a say over that is a dignified and decent place to live.
30:29
And so we're going to do that at the state level.
The Mamdani administration is committed to building 200,000 new units of rent stabilized, deeply affordable housing.
So over the course of the next few years, we're going to be building that alternative.
30:47
And I think that the alternative is so important because with the right, the right doesn't have a real answer for how to make your life better.
It just has distractions, it just has cruelty.
And the more that we can say we built something in New York State, it actually makes your life easier.
31:05
Your life is less expensive.
You can raise a family here, you have free childcare.
The more we can shift people away from right wing politics and towards something that is life giving and and hopeful.
31:22
I've got to bring us back to brass tacks before we close, although we'll get back to our visions as well.
But one of the fears that I hear from people right now is that they are afraid and even maybe some of their electeds are afraid to act because they say the White House could invoke that Insurrection Act.
31:43
We could see our streets flooded with troops in addition to the federalized National Guard and the ICE agents, and that could be seen or used as a pretext to cancel elections.
Chris, I'm assuming you've looked at that possibility.
Is it real?
31:59
It is real.
How do we think about it?
Opposition to bad things happening does not require escalation.
If someone is hurting another person and you want to step in between them to stop that, that's a good thing to do.
32:17
If you're up for it and to call.
You know, that's that's how I view it, is it's calling that escalation.
We have an abuser in the federal government and we are trying to intercede to stop that.
This administration has not faced obstruction or at least well, there's been some, but, but nowhere near the levels that we're capable of.
32:34
And they are quickening their pace.
Their goal is to have a single party rule federal government with where they can control Everything Everywhere and continue to raid the coffers.
That's their goal.
Things like tax escrow legislation, plus 100 other ways of obstructing, denying, refusing, building parallel structures, prosecuting corruption, even at the federal level.
32:59
These are ways to fight back that are not inherently escalatory.
And I'll also mention sending there's like people act as if it's a binary between don't prosecute ICE officers for horrible crimes or we end up with the Insurrection Act.
33:14
There is no reason that we can't send the National Guard and police officers with body cameras to follow ICE around.
Look at everyone's ID.
If they commit crimes, they'll get prosecuted later.
So that way we don't have one law enforcement officer arresting a federal officer in that exact environment.
33:31
And the White House might invoke the Insurrection Act no matter what.
We've had a conversation about exactly that on this program.
And I should say we've had conversations about the Vienna model for public housing also on this program people can find in our archives.
Timothy, coming back to you, tenants are some of the most vulnerable people in our community.
33:50
You organize them.
You must have an inspiring way to talk about fear.
I know our new mayor has been talking powerfully about love and caring over fear.
How are you feeling in this moment and what are you telling people who many of them fearing ice, are afraid these days more than ever before?
34:16
I mean, tenants, tenants are half the state in New York, in New York State, there's 70% of the city.
I think that, you know, we're actually a powerful force.
And So what what I tell people is that you're not just by yourself, you're with thousands of other people, millions of other people who want this.
34:35
And it is scary to stand up and to resist what's happening, especially when we see what ICE is doing, what the federal government is doing to people who do stand up.
But they are doing that because they are also feeling threatened by what is happening, by the resistance that we're seeing, by the loss of control that they are feeling over the country because people are not buying what they're selling.
35:00
They don't, they don't believe in this, this hateful vision.
And so, you know, the answer is, is always going to be collective action and working together with other people.
And that is what makes you brave when you are with thousands of other people who are willing to fight for a different future.
35:23
All right.
So I'm think we're ready for the question I ask all of our guests at the end of these conversations.
And that is the story that the future will tell of now.
And let's start with you, Christopher.
What do you think is the story the future will tell of this moment?
I don't know.
Looking forward 2550 hundred years.
35:42
That's a question I've thought about a lot.
You know, if it's 50 years from now and the history books are being written about where we are today, where would I want to be?
Where I'd want to be is fighting fascism and doing what we can to make a better future.
And the story of this moment is the same story in in World War 2IN many ways, they're very analogous.
36:02
We faced unprecedented threats and the deepest shadows of humanity in those moments.
And what came out of it because we confronted our shadow as, as a species is we created so many positive programs and, and mechanisms for international ethics enforcement that are just now being dismantled.
36:24
Almost 100 years ago.
They they were very robust.
And so we are confronting our shadow once again and we're on the front lines of fixing that.
And that's how where we are in that story.
What about you, Timothy?
What would you say is the story the future will tell?
I would hope that what happens in New York City over the next few years, sparks cities across this, across the country, of sparks movements across the country.
36:51
It already is of people who want to take power back at their city level and then at their state level and then at the federal level.
And we build a mass movement that builds off of everything that we've been experiencing over the last few years, everything that we've built.
37:10
And people see a real inspiration from what we've been able to build in the city.
And we can make this country work for working people again.
Timothy Christopher, thank you both so much for being with me.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
37:29
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37:44
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