Synopsis: Mahmoud Khalil examines why the question of Palestine is a test for U.S. democracy. “People mistakenly think that what's happening is far from their doors. They think that this would never happen to them, because of their social status, because of their ethnicity or any of that. But what's happening around us should alarm us . . . It's not about that the U.S. is becoming authoritarian. It is authoritarianism now.” - Mahmoud Khalil Description: Mahmoud Khalil discusses his terrifying detainment, the “Palestinian Exception” and the case brought against him by the Trump administration. Despite risks of deportation, Khalil continues to courageously speak out, and he and his legal team have filed a civil rights lawsuit with the U.S. District Court of New Jersey against the Trump administration to challenge his arrest and detention by ICE. UPDATE - since this interview was recorded- “The recent decision by a federal court in Massachusetts in the AAUP v. Rubio case confirms what Mahmoud has maintained all along: that Trump administration officials have acted in concert to suppress and silence anti-genocide, pro-Palestinian speech, in violation of the First Amendment. We look forward to the remedies that court will order and to pursuing Mahmoud’s own separate and ongoing federal court challenge to this unconstitutional policy.” -Ramzi Kassem, co-director of CLEAR, and one of the lawyers representing Mahmoud Khalil. Full Conversation Release: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offer to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation. These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our member supporters. Become a member today, go to https://Patreon.com/LauraFlandersandFriends Watch the special report on YouTube; PBS World Channel October 5th, and on over 300 public stations across the country (check your listings, or search here via zipcode). Listen: Episode airing on community radio October 8th (check here to see if your station is airing the show and day/time) & available as a podcast.
Synopsis: Mahmoud Khalil examines why the question of Palestine is a test for U.S. democracy.
This show is made possible by you! To become a sustaining member go to LauraFlanders.org/donate
Description: Mahmoud Khalil was coming home from an Iftar dinner with his pregnant wife on March 8, 2025 when he was detained without a warrant and transported 1,500 miles to a Louisiana detention camp. A negotiator for the 2024 pro-Palestine student protests at Columbia University, Khalil was a legal permanent resident who’d committed no violence or crime; his abduction shocked the world. The Trump administration was seeking to expel Khalil, not for his acts, but for his otherwise legal “beliefs, statements and associations” which Secretary of State Marco Rubio wrote in short letter, would “compromise a compelling US foreign policy interest.” A New Jersey federal judge threw out that case and Khalil was released after 104 days in detention, but the backlash keeps on coming. In this courageous conversation, Mahmoud Khalil joins Laura Flanders to discuss the night of his terrifying detainment, the “Palestinian Exception” and the case brought against him by the Trump administration. They are alleging errors on his green card application and have ordered Khalil to be deported — possibly to Algeria or Syria where his life would be under threat. Despite the risks of deportation, Mahmoud Khalil continues to speak out, and he and his legal team have filed a civil rights lawsuit with the U.S. District Court of New Jersey against the Trump administration to challenge his arrest and detention by ICE. Join Khalil and Flanders as they ask why the question of Palestine is a test for U.S. democracy — and one we are failing.
“. . . [The Trump administration is] using Palestine. They are using the pretext of antisemitism and combating antisemitism to go after us because they know that this is the weakness of the Democratic party. When they go to the universities, they start with combating antisemitism, but then the second ask would be to abolish all DEI programs, to sanitize the history on slavery and the inception of America. And the list goes on and on and on.” - Mahmoud Khalil
“People mistakenly think that what's happening is far from their doors. They think that this would never happen to them, because of their social status, because of their ethnicity or any of that. But what's happening around us should alarm us . . . It's not about that the U.S. is becoming authoritarian. It is authoritarianism now.” - Mahmoud Khalil
Guest: Mahmoud Khalil, Human Rights Advocate
UPDATE - since this interview was recorded- “The recent decision by a federal court in Massachusetts in the AAUP v. Rubio case confirms what Mahmoud has maintained all along: that Trump administration officials have acted in concert to suppress and silence anti-genocide, pro-Palestinian speech, in violation of the First Amendment. We look forward to the remedies that court will order and to pursuing Mahmoud’s own separate and ongoing federal court challenge to this unconstitutional policy.” -Ramzi Kassem, co-director of CLEAR, and one of the lawyers representing Mahmoud Khalil.
Full Conversation Release: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offer to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation. These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our member supporters.
Watch the special report on YouTube; PBS World Channel September 21st, and on over 300 public stations across the country (check your listings, or search here via zipcode). Listen: Episode airing on community radio September 24th (check here to see if your station is airing the show) & available as a podcast.
Full Episode Notes are located HERE.
Music Credit: 'Thrum of Soil' by Bluedot Sessions, and original sound design by Jeannie Hopper
RESOURCES:
Related Laura Flanders Show Episodes:
• Behind the Barricades at Columbia University: “The Encampments” for Gaza- Watch / Listen: Episode and Uncut Conversation
• Israel, Hamas & Gaza: UN Insider Craig Mokhiber Exposes Genocide, Apartheid & Human Rights Failures- Watch / Listen: Episode and Uncut Conversation
• Organizing for Gaza Ceasefire Through Policy & Protest: Meet JVP & NY Assemblymember Mamdani- Watch / Listen: Episode and Uncut Conversation
• Israel-Palestine News - YouTube Playlist
Related Articles and Resources:
• Federal judge rules Trump unconstitutionally targeted Gaza war protesters for deportation, by Michael Casey, Associated Press, PBS
• What is Better US, the group pushing to deport pro-Palestinain students? By Al Jazeera Staff, March 25, 2025, Al Jazeera
• Google Secretly Handed ICE Data About Pro-Palestine Student Activist, by Shawn Musgrave, September 16, 2025, The Intercept
• UC Berkeley Gives Trump Administration 160 Names in Antisemitism Investigation, by Brian Krans, September 12, 2025, KQED
• Block the Bombs Act To Israel
Support Laura Flanders and Friends by becoming a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/lauraflandersandfriends
LAURA FLANDERS AND FRIENDS
UNCUT INTERVIEW:
0:00
123.
[Narrator] While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offered to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation.
These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our members supporters.
0:23
[Laura Flanders] Perhaps you've heard of the Palestine exception.
That's the idea that all sorts of behaviors and speech that are acceptable in other contexts are selectively denied and punished when it comes to advocacy around Palestine.
Well, what if the treatment of Palestinians wasn't an exception, but rather a stress test, A test of our tolerance as a nation and as a people for cruelty and the consolidation of authoritarian rule?
0:49
Go down the list that we have heard from every fascism scholar we've had on this program, and what do they say, authoritarians do?
They name an enemy, declare an emergency, and on that pretext invoke extraordinary, often military powers to shock and intimidate every credible source of opposition and dissent, including politicians, the law, the media, the Academy, free speech, and even the truth itself.
1:15
Our guest today has seen everyone of those steps up close.
A negotiator for the massive pro Palestine student protests on Columbia University's campus in 2024, Mahmoud Khalil was arrested without a warrant by unidentified men in March.
1:33
He was, in fact, one of the 1st and most visible abductions.
After the second Trump administration took office, Khalil was taken from his pregnant wife and transported 1500 miles away to a Louisiana detention camp without access to a lawyer or any means of defense, A legal permanent resident who had committed no violence and broken no law.
1:55
The Trump administration sought to expel Khalil not for his acts but for his quote, beliefs, statements and associations, which Secretary of State Marco Rubio wrote in a short letter would, quote, compromise A compelling US foreign policy interest. close quote 100.
2:14
Some days later, after he had missed the birth of his son Dean, a New Jersey federal judge rejected Rubio's case and ordered Mahmoud Khalil released.
But this September, the administration came back, now citing errors on his green card application, and ordered Khalil to be deported, possibly to Algeria or Syria, where his life would be under threat.
2:35
He has until the end of October to appeal.
In the meantime, Khalil is suing the Trump administration for $20 million in damages, alleging that he was falsely imprisoned, maliciously prosecuted and smeared as an anti Semite.
And we as a nation are seeing threats to free speech, assembly, migration and academic freedom.
2:56
Spread and spread and spread.
Khalil is just 30.
He was born in a refugee camp in Syria after the mass expulsion of Palestinians from the land claimed by Israel in 1948.
He fled Syria for Lebanon in 2013 after joining protests against then President Bashar al-Assad and came to Columbia University to pursue a master's degree in 2022.
3:21
Khalil has said he will continue advocating for Palestinians as his legal battle plays out.
And that is exactly what he is doing.
It is my great honor, privilege and pleasure to welcome Mahmoud Khalil to Laura Flanders and friends, Thanks for joining us.
It is great to be talking with you, Mahmoud.
3:38
And I've got to begin by asking how your family are.
How is baby Dean and your wife, Noor?
[Mahmoud Khalil] She's been through a lot.
Well, thank you so much, Laura, for having me.
It's it's really a pleasure for me to be, to be here with you.
We're doing very well, taking it day by day.
3:56
You know, Noor went through a lot, especially during her late months of pregnancy and early days of, of, of a newborn.
So now we're just, yeah, making up for these days that were taken from us.
And Dean turns 5 months just two days ago.
4:16
So he's at this very precious time now.
[Laura Flanders] Is it fun for you to be a dad?
Are you enjoying it?
[Mahmoud Khalil] I am, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I, you know, you, you receive a lot of I, I would say like, I don't know, people would, would make it a big deal.
4:35
But I mean, it's not.
I I love it.
I really love it.
And I spent my night with with Dean.
So it was my turn sleeping with him, like waking up with him.
And I absolutely love it.
[Laura Flanders]. Well, that's great to hear.
4:51
I guess I start by asking about your people.
But the next thing I want to ask you about is your place and Palestine, and not the Palestine of the war and the, and the misery that we're seeing this minute, but the Palestine of your grandmother's stories, perhaps.
Like what does that Palestine to you in your, in your heart, on your mind?
5:08
What picture perhaps does that summon?
[Mahmoud Khalil]. So I have it as, as a country for everyone, a country that treats all its people inequality and dignity, giving them the same freedoms, not, not depending on who they are or their religion.
5:29
Just like you know, you're, you're a citizen of this country, you have the full rights and, and responsibilities.
And this is what I am fighting for right now.
I'm I'm fighting for a country that would treat everyone equally without apartheid, without occupation, without violence, and it's as simple as that.
5:52
I don't know what is complicated about this.
Like similar to any country around the world did.
[Laura Flanders] Your grandmother tell you stories.
Yeah, she did.
I mean, my, my grandmother was my, my primary source about life in, in, in Palestine and back then.
6:08
I mean, Palestine was not an, an independent country.
It was under during her age.
It was first under the Ottoman ruling, then for a brief, A brief time like under the Arab rule, but then the, the British came and ultimately the Zionists expelled her from, from that country.
6:31
But for her, you know, they lived in, in a very small village in, in northern Palestine and, and the Sea of Galilee, Tiberias and they were farmers.
So by the time that she left Palestine, she already had, I think 3, three kids and the fourth she, she had to deliver on the way to, to Syria.
6:59
And to be honest, like growing up in, in, in, in the refugee camp, I can't see in, in her eyes the, the misery and sort of like just the longing for Palestine, for that life where she had her own house, she had her own land and everyone around her just living in, in, in, in, in, in, in peace.
7:22
And, and I, I've mentioned that before, but she had like Jewish neighbors and she would sometimes go and work in their farms as, as as well.
And at no point she meant she, I felt any, any sort of, I would say anger or anonymity against like, you know, like her Jewish neighbors at all.
7:46
And and this is I I believe what she was struggling with that why now she lives less than 40 miles away from her hometown, from the village in, in a tent or later a mud house with no property whatsoever.
8:07
Having to having to go after like you know, you and aid have it, having to like rebuild her life from from from from scratch.
[Laura Flanders] So your commitment to Palestine and the vision that you've just shared is clearly part of what drives your activism.
8:33
Concretely, how did you get connected with the movement that you became a negotiator for there on the Columbia University campus I.
Mean being, being a Palestinian, you'd already connected to the movement of, of liberation to, of, of your people.
8:51
And that Colombian specifically was one of the very few Palestinian students on campus, especially those coming directly from a refugee camp or from Palestine.
Like we had few Arab Americans or Palestinian Americans who, who were like first or second generations in this country, but there were very few who were actually coming directly from, from, from, from the region.
9:14
And I mean, since since I left Syria, I had also this sense of, of a humanity.
And in terms of like, I want to find justice, I want to seek justice and, and, and dignity.
9:31
So I started working with Syrians and Palestinian Syrian refugees in Lebanon and across the region and came here, continued to do that.
But here I was struck by the Palestine exception, by the double standards against Palestinians, by the endless unconditional support to Israel in this country, but also by the dehumanization of Palestinians.
9:59
So, you know, I spent all my life between Syria and Lebanon.
I traveled to Europe, but I never felt this level of dehumanization just because you're Palestinian.
So if you say you're Palestinian, you have I felt that I have to like appeal to people that I'm, I'm, I'm just a human, you know, I'm just like you.
10:20
I, I, I, I, I play, I play soccer, I go to cinema.
Like we're not like, you know, just like violent and, and all of that.
And I was struck by by that.
And that sort of pushed me more and more to to advocate for the rights of my people and to actually have my voice out like as a Palestinian to speak about Palestinians because Palestinians for ages they were declined the that I to narrate that that I to talk about.
10:50
Because you always hear people talk about Palestinians and what Palestinians want, but not actually Palestinians say say that.
[Laura Flanders] Professor Edward Said, who made his home at that university at Columbia, once famously was told by a newspaper of note that, well, you're not going to see translations of books from Arabic because Arabic is a terrorist language.
11:15
[Mahmoud Khalil] Yeah, yeah.
And the same like I was struck by the same hypocrisy at Colombia where I joined a Palestinian student group and I was shocked that most of our events would be flagged as as special events, although they are just as normal events as as any other group.
11:35
[Laura Flanders] What kind of events?
[Mahmoud Khalil] So one of them, one of them is literally we were hosting the director of Israel Palestine office at Human Rights Watch, like AUS based international organization to come and talk about human rights and international law in in Israel Palestine.
11:54
And that event was flagged as as a special event.
And we had to fight to have this event happening.
And then another one is the screening of of a documentary, Israelism, which was produced by Jewish producers and directors.
12:14
Yet because it's an anti Zionist film, the university also gave us a difficult time to screen that that film.
[Laura Flanders] It's a film made by people who were brought up as Zionists, explaining the reality, the understanding that they came to as they got older.
12:32
So you get involved and we've seen some of what happened in the film, the encampments that we featured on this program in the past.
People can check that out.
What we don't know is your story of March 8th, International Women's Day for some, but for others, the day on which you were, there's no other word for it, abducted.
12:52
What happened?
[Mahmoud Khalil] So following my, I would say, involvement in the encampment in April 2024, there was a very, I would say, concerted effort to dox me and smear me online by many shady groups, but also by Zionist actors at Columbia University.
13:20
But I sort of did not care about that because, you know, these smear campaigns were designed to intimidate you.
So you don't you don't speak.
However, when Trump came into power these threats like became institutionalized.
13:38
Like this anti Palestinian sentiment has become institutionalized in a way that the federal government was depending on these shady groups to get information and to target pro Palestine advocacy.
Yet I was to be honest, like I was confident, you know, nothing would happen to me.
13:57
I never did anything wrong.
I literally was protesting a genocide.
I was in my university protesting against the use of my tuition dollars to be invested in, in, in, in Israel.
So there's nothing wrong about that.
Like, I, I, I, I was very confident of that.
14:14
Yet, you know, like the week leading up to March 8, I see the same groups mentioning DHS, Rubio, the White House to deport me.
And then March 8 comes.
14:30
I was on my way back from from a dinner and a start dinner with with my wife.
And it was a Saturday night.
So, you know, like we're looking forward to just go home, have a cup of tea.
Noor was eight months pregnant at that time.
14:47
And and yeah, that that's and then we're surprised.
As you said, I was followed by plainclothes agents and unmarked cars come in just telling me like, you need to come with us.
I ask, you know, because here you think you have you have rights.
15:06
So I asked like, oh, first, can I see your ID?
But second, do you have an arrest warrant?
And they declined to do to, to, to, to show me these.
And you know, at first they said your visa has been revoked.
I was like, you know, I don't have a visa.
15:22
I'm here.
I'm, I'm, I'm a permanent resident in this country.
And they can see them like shocked that I told them that I'm a permanent resident.
And on the phone, of course, I'm giving you like the very short version of what happened, but on the phone, like someone says, bring him anyways.
15:41
So without showing me any, any arrest warrant.
And then I was shocked and, and into into this and unmarked car being being sent from one place to another, you know, New York and New Jersey, then back to New York, Texas, Louisiana.
15:58
And, and at that point, I didn't know like what's actually happening around me.
The last thing I heard before before being arrested or while being arrested was them threatening ignored my wife of arrest if if she doesn't leave me and and then when I was being booked.
16:20
The last thing I heard that the White House is requesting an update.
So imagine being in in in these circumstances where I was like, what?
Like what?
What's happening that the White House were you?
[Laura Flanders] And were you in shackles at that time?
Did I get that right?
[Mahmoud Khalil] Yes.
16:35
So I was in shackles but basically during these like first 30 hours for most of the time when being transported from from one place to to to another and any call.
To a lawyer, any call to anybody.
Nothing.
Despite my repeated request to call a lawyer to call my wife.
16:53
I did like, you know, and which is like the bare minimum, like as someone, I, I studied public administration and public policy.
So I understand the law very, very well.
To, to, to a good degree at least.
Yeah.
They refused to do to do any of that, as if, as if they are acting extrajudicially, as if.
17:16
And I felt it, I felt I felt that maybe I'm being kidnapped.
Maybe I will be.
Especially when, you know, I was shackled being driven in the woods of Louisiana for over an hour and being transported from one car to another.
17:32
That was like, you know, like what what's happening like is because I felt like really that what's happening to me was like, maybe I would be killed now.
Like I don't know where, where, where I am.
So, yeah, and I'm just thinking, you'd fled Syria for fear of exactly this kind of treatment and came to the US expecting different and better.
17:54
Now, it took a little while, but eventually Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, releases this short letter.
I'm claiming that your beliefs, opinions, and associations pose some kind of threat to US foreign policy and to US he.
Said something, he said something there that's really alarming.
18:12
He said my beliefs, activities, associations, otherwise lawful like he concedes that these are lawful acts, these are lawful associations.
So in the same letter he concedes that what I'm doing is lawful.
18:28
But Despite that, I want to deport you because, you know, I see this as a foreign policy threat and compelling national security threat, which is absurd like at so many levels.
And rightly, a federal judge ruled that there will be determination or this letter in a specific was unconstitutional because it's unheard of that the US government throughout history used this particular provision in the law against someone for their particular speech.
19:05
They used it against the Shah of Iran.
They used it against an attorney general from Mexico, not against a lawful permanent president in the United States.
Move to the future, to the current situation, and that case against you has been thrown out by the judge.
19:24
But no.
Anyone So, so basically the the federal judge did did say it's unconstitutional.
The government is appealing that now in the applet court, but it's clear, like I think the government realized that they can't win on that case now.
19:43
They fabricated a whole new case that I, I, I made some willful misrepresentation on my green card application when I applied there.
And it's, it's, it's merely like actually, to be honest, like I, I would say disgusting that they are.
20:02
Resorting to such tactics, fascist tactics, like literally fabricating the whole case.
I wasn't even asked about these allegations in my court hearing, in my immigration court hearing.
And this is something that I believe the American public does not know very well is that immigration courts and are not actual courts, are not, you know, Article 3 courts or like independent, I would say they belong or they, they report, they report to the executive branch, They, they report to the Department of Justice and the Attorney General.
20:39
So the judge, the immigration judge in that case basically did not look at the case and they just wanted to find me deportable.
And this is what happened now.
And we're still also like we're, we're, we're challenging that because it's clear it is in in retaliation of my First Amendment rights in this country.
21:05. [MIDROLL BREAK]
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21:24
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21:46 [End Midroll Break]
[Laura Flanders] In the meantime, we've seen other people abducted.
We've seen, you know, anonymous people sent to other countries in flights that foreigners have to kind of track via GPS.
We've also seen the language ratchet up in this country.
22:02
Most recently, Deputy Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, Donald Trump's deputy chief of staff, described the Democratic Party as not a party but a domestic extremist group.
Do you think my suggestion that this so-called exception is actually a test of our acceptance of authoritarian or fascist rule holds?
22:29
[Mahmoud Khalil] And I mean, the administration was not trying to hide any of that.
They said that my case would be used as a blueprint as a test case to go after everyone who they don't like their speech.
And this is happening now, whether with it is with Jimmy Kimmel just last week or any of that.
22:47
This this has been happening to Palestinians and to pro Palestine speech in this country for for a number of for a number of years.
The anti BDS laws across like states criminalizing boycott and divestment, Palestinians being targeted in their universities, their jobs.
23:10
And now they're extending this to the rest of us to go after everyone who they deem a threat.
And if you don't fit the definition of what an American be, what an American is, according to Stephen Miller, which is you should be, you know, a blonde with, with, with the blue eyes, then you should you should you, you don't belong in in, in this country.
23:37
You should be deported.
You are a threat which which is very, very dangerous.
And as you said rightly in in in your introduction, this government thrives on division.
They want to create, You know, they started with visa holders, green card holders, citizens, then they extended that into naturalized citizens and you know, like US born citizens, but also when, when they go into that now they're challenging the, the, the birthright in, in this country.
24:15
So it doesn't stop anywhere really.
And, and and unless you fit that narrow definition of what an American is.
So it does seem to me that this administration is very good at targeting the weaknesses and the potential divisions within the resistance, as you might say, or within the the progressive population.
24:37
[Laura Flanders] One of those weaknesses obviously was around Palestine and Zionism and the state of Israel.
Another weakness around white supremacy and racism and the history of this country, 1/3 perhaps might be people's can, you know, lack of awareness, understanding of trans identity and LGBTQ life and live and liberties.
24:59
In the most recent releases from the administration of which groups they're targeting, you see those exact groups targeted, Black Lives Matter, JVP, you name it.
If it's true they're going after weaknesses.
This is a big question.
Do you think we are more weak or less weak now than we were?
25:21
[Mahmoud Khalil]. I believe, I believe, you know, like they're it's and unless people like unite and see through these tactics, unfortunately we are less weak because I mean we are weaker.
We're mainly.
Because, because, because this administration has has been preparing for this thing since their first term.
25:43
You know, they have the project 2025, they have the Ester project Ester as well on how to use, you know, alleged anti-Semitism to to go after the speech as as as a whole in in in, in in this country and to go after liberal institutions to go after high, high higher institution higher education institutions.
26:06
So, so unfortunately, unless we see through that we are weaker and with the current Democratic leadership, a shameful leadership, I don't think the, the situation would get any better.
And especially with, with also the Palestine exception, when, when you can see that the, the Democratic leadership and establishment, they are so weak on, on this.
26:32
And, and This is why the Trump administration are using like Palestine, they are using like the pretext of, of, of, of anti-Semitism and combating anti-Semitism to go after us because they know that this is, this is the weakness of the Democratic Party.
And, and you know, when they go to the universities, they start with combating anti-Semitism.
26:52
But then the second ask would be to abolish all the DEI programs to sanitize the history on on slavery and and the inception of of of America and the list goes on and on and on.
[Laura Flanders]. So you were a negotiator.
27:10
You were an up and coming diplomat.
You were here partly because you were interested to be near the United Nations, where you might get to be a diplomat someday.
So, you know about dealing with people in delicate positions, let's just say, and I'd like to hear what you've learnt about how we could combat some of this weakness, come together over issues that make a lot of people uncomfortable.
27:34
I mean, this October 7th, we're going to see a lot of discomfort over over what happened and different experiences and people feeling their lives, their families, their own stories under threat.
What have you learned?
What can you teach us?
You are at this point I think are an expert.
[Mahmoud Khalil]. I mean, it's just, it's just like from, from, from my experience, I, I would say, and for these exact reasons, the students and faculty at Columbia selected me to, to negotiate on, on, on, on on their behalf.
28:03
And they believe, you know, like it's not about Israel, Palestine or, or, or any, any of any of the, the, the groups it's about.
To me, it's a right, a rights based approach that we are all humans.
We are all should be treated equal and we should fight together against injustices.
28:26
Now the injustices that's happening right now by this administration that's trying to dismantle American institutions, American values, human rights, international humanitarian law, they're trying to dismantle all of that.
So and unity is the approach and unity in a way that's a right space approach, that of people to live, to live equally in freedom and dignity.
29:00
And unless literally the people wake up, like I think now the problem is a lot of people are got so used to Trump and they say like with every action, they would say, oh, that's just like Trump.
You know, that's just another thing Trump is doing.
But I think people mistakenly think that what's happening is far from their doors.
29:22
They think that this would never happen to them, whether because, you know, because of their social status, because of their ethnicity or any of that.
But what's happening around us, like should, should alarm us that this is at our door, it's in our house.
29:37
And it's not about that the US is becoming authoritarian.
It is authoritarianism.
Now, like I lived under Assad regime.
I know how how that feels.
And now we can see, I can see, I can see the same, the same attitudes around, around me, wherever I go with, with whomever I, I, I talk to.
29:58
[Laura Flanders]. So we literally live now in in authoritarianism.
That hasn't stopped you fighting back.
You have brought a civil lawsuit.
What's the status of that right now?
[Mahmoud Khalil] So, so now with this, you know, like the legal system takes it takes a long time in this country.
30:13
So which which we'll file the federal case very soon to to take the administration to the federal court.
And this is about accountability because to me, silence is not an option.
I know if, if I'm silent, that wouldn't really vindicate me or wouldn't make any my case any better.
30:36
And they would still come after, come after me and after anyone, anyone else.
And the, the, the coast or the moral cost of remaining silent is, is much higher than, you know, any, any of these codes that any of these like coasts that may happen to me or happening to me to me right now.
30:54
And they will continue to seek accountability, whether through this lawsuit.
But also I, I, I go frequently to the, to the, to Congress now, like just to, to lobby and, and, and advocate not only for my case, it's, it's for the stop of, of, of the war, but also like raising the alarm about what's happening now around us.
31:23
[Laura Flanders] Around you in that detention center in Louisiana were migrants of all sorts, people being detained and threatened with deportation who had been in this country for decades, some of them.
Do you think about them?
Is there anyone you're in touch with, anyone who you think about in the middle of the night or maybe on the day?
31:42
[Mahmoud Khalil] I, I, I think of them frequently and, and I'm still in touch with, with some of them who were unfortunately deported without due process.
And you know, what was the the most difficult part of that experience is the dehumanization that these people went through seeing on TV themselves being called as criminals as as all these sort of libels.
32:14
And for most of them, they're just looking for a better life.
They are already in the process of becoming documented.
A lot of them were literally taken from their court hearings or ice check in.
So they would not like fleeing or like not abiding by the law.
32:32
No, they are literally in the process of getting documents, yet they find themselves in, in, in a place without any rights being separated from their families.
And that's, that's, that's what was difficult about, about this.
And you know, like it took me over 25 lawyers to to get bail.
32:54
Imagine the hundreds of thousands of people who barely have one lawyer.
[Laura Flanders] You have spoken about your determination and it comes across loud and clear.
33:11
There are some who would say at what price the truth what what what?
What truth is worth fighting for?
And again, perhaps as your in your expertise as a as a diplomat, how do you answer that question?
33:28
What what?
What's worth fighting over and what should.
People just let go.
[Mahmoud Khalil] I'm I'm fighting.
I'm fighting at a time where 10s or hundreds of thousands of my people are being massacred, starved to death, maimed by the hour, and at a time where we're all being dehumanized or our rights are being stripped off, stripped off us.
33:53
And, and once again, like I, you know, when, when I think of the risks, like what, what risk is, is that in comparison to someone who's now, you know, like under bombardment, similar or waiting at the checkpoint in the West Bank or expelled out of their home at, at, at, at the hands of the settlers.
34:19
So that's how it, how, how, how I, I talk about and, and to be honest, like the fear is real.
Like it, you know, there is fear, there is exhaustion.
I want to spend my time to be able to spend my time with my wife and, and, and, and, and son and, and build the family that we always, we have always dreamed of.
34:40
Like just, you know, being people, normal people.
And, you know, like take the subway, go to a Broadway show.
That's what we want.
Like I, I, we don't want to live this life, but I can't get to that life if if this continues.
34:58
[Laura Flanders] Over 150 countries, member countries at the United Nations have now recognized the state of Palestine, the country.
Will that make any difference?
It makes a very small difference.
[Mahmoud Khalil] Unfortunately, it wouldn't make a difference to those who are being killed and starved on the ground.
35:17
It may make a difference like strategically in the coming years, but you know, like we hundreds of thousands of people like shouldn't have been killed for other countries to recognize Palestine as as a country.
35:37
So that's, that's basically my, my, my response.
I mean, it's nice, you know, like it's, it's, it's good, but is it, is it, it like we want to make sure that there, there are people remaining to live in this, in this state that they are now recognizing.
35:54
[Laura Flanders] There are some heroic resistors, especially among young people who would be subject to the draft in Israel the to serve in the so-called Israeli Defence Force.
Increasingly we're hearing their voices, they're speaking up.
There are some others inside Israel who see in their own leader a similar kind of fascist authoritarian who has his own self interested reasons to stay in power and is as as UN responsive to any sanction by international law.
36:27
What's your thought or your message to those people inside Israel and those who are close to them?
[Mahmoud Khalil] I mean, there's absolutely no excuse to serve in an army that's committing A genocide.
So I absolutely applaud those who are, you know, resisting being part of, of, of such a genocidal army, a genocidal state at, at, at this point.
36:50
And to me, as I said it before, our liberation is mutual.
Our liberation is, is intertwined.
You can never achieve Israel's security without giving the Palestinians their full rights and vice versa.
So this is This is why I, I, I believe in, in, in our collective liberation and my liberation shouldn't come at the expense of anyones liberation and vice versa.
37:19
Like, I don't expect, you know, Zionism is, is could be a noble ideology of, of creating a home for, for, for the Jewish people.
But when that comes at the expense of my people.
Here's the problem.
37:35
So similarly, I, I, I, I want to, I want to be able to realize myself, determination, respect others, self determination and, and just, you know, like live, live, live in, in dignity, freedom and and justice prosperity.
37:52
[Laura Flanders] Is there anything you would have done different in the last few years given how this has played out?
And I guess one last question is, would you recommend to other young people like yourself to come to this country anymore?
I'm glad you came, but I think we're losing lots of talent.
[Mahmoud Khalil] So answering your first question, I don't, I mean, you know, you can always communicate better.
38:12
You could have, you can always done things differently, but the core thing, which is opposing A genocide and advocating for the right of your people to be to be free, I wouldn't have changed that.
And once again, I didn't do anything wrong.
38:27
I didn't do anything immoral or unlawful.
So that's the thing.
And regarding your second question, I mean, it's difficult.
The state of the United States right now and the rights here, it's very difficult.
38:44
And This is why I'm fighting.
This is why because I want to be able to raise my child, my children in a country that respects them and respect others.
So This is why I'm doing it to be honest.
[Laura Flanders] Well, that takes me to our last question and the question I ask all of our guests, which is what do you think is the story the future will tell of this moment?
39:04
But in your case, I think I'll just adapt it.
Like, what do you see as the future for Dean?
What do you imagine his life might be?
I don't know, 1020, thirty, 50 years from now.
[Mahmoud Khalil] I mean, this is a very difficult question.
And in your first question, I don't, I don't want people to reflect on this moment.
39:22
I want them to act now to stop us from from going after 30 years and feel bad about what happened now and create a museum for the Palestinian people or or, you know, like all these like gestures that would happen.
That's why I I, I I'm fighting right now and in 20 years, to be honest, it's it's so difficult like to to predict.
39:46
And I always said it like I won't Dean to live, to live in a country that respects him and all his people as as a humans, as equal humans and human beings and a place where he can proudly calls him himself like an American.
40:07
A place where his tax money does not go toward funding war crimes or weapons being used in in in other parts of of of the world.
That's, that's, that's my hope.
[Laura Flanders] Will that happen?
40:23
[Mahmoud Khalil] I mean, I'm hopeful.
I'm very hopeful of with in, in, in the new generation, the new generation who, who, who, who's seeing, you know, this genocide unfolding in front of their eyes and refusing to remain silent despite all the, the, the opposition, despite all the, the depression against them.
40:47
Like the students at Columbia, 17/18/19 years old who are risking their degrees, their futures, everything to speak out for the truth, to speak out for, for human rights.
That's what keeps me hopeful and what's actually now keeps, keeps me like fighting, not not being like, you know, just sitting and and and and wait for my fate.
41:10
[Laura Flanders] Do you see a path to that future?
Like what do we do?
[Mahmoud Khalil] There is, there's absolutely a path and when there's a world, there's a way.
I I absolutely believe in that.
Despite how this administration and the establishment, those in power want us to think that we are useless, we are hopeless and we don't have a chance.
41:33
No, I absolutely believe we, we, we do have and it's, it's in our in our, in our hand.
And as Bernie just said, I believe before, before me joining, you know, like I believe that the, the people are now like awakening to, to what's happening around them, to all the trustees and the practices around them.
41:56
And, and they're acting and they believe it may take some time and fortunately, very unfortunately, but that's why we we need to keep fighting and, and never take a break.
Absolutely.
[Laura Flanders] Bernie Sanders said that in a prior interview on this program.
42:14
People can check it out in our archives.
Mahmoud Khalil, is there anything else you'd like to share?
Ask Express.
[Mahmoud Khalil] No,
[Laura Flanders] it's been really a pleasure.
To have you.
[Mahmoud Khalil] No, Thank you so much, Laura, for having me and for having this space.
[Laura Flanders] Keep up the great work.
42:29
[Laura Flanders] Thank you.
[Mahmoud Khalil] Thank you.
[Narrator] Thanks for taking the time to listen to the full conversation.
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42:45
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