Synopsis: With humor as their shield and community as their sword, Ezra Levin and László Upor dissect the art of resisting autocracy, offering a masterclass in defiance and a beacon of hope for those seeking to build a more democratic future. Description: While Donald Trump rails against Europe, he and Hungary’s strongman leader, Viktor Orbán, have praised each other for years. Ezra Levin, the co-founder of Indivisible (the group behind No Kings!) and László Upor, a leader in one of Hungary’s most creative and visible resistance efforts, share their experiences of resisting authoritarianism. “Our enemy in this isn't Trump, it's not the Republicans. It's not the broader regime. Our enemy is this sense of cynicism or fatalism or nihilism . . . I do think a core principle in our communication philosophy is convincing people, you have power, you just gotta use it. The best way to use it is in concert with a lot of other people in your community.” - Ezra Levin “You have to laugh at them, not be afraid of them . . . They don't understand mirth. They don't understand the derision. They think they are invincible. And when we don't give in, they don't understand what's going on.” - László Upper Guests: • Ezra Levin: Co-Founder & Co-Executive Director, Indivisible • László Upor: Former Vice Rector & Acting Rector, University of Theatre and Film Arts (SzFE), Budapest, Hungary Full Conversation Release: While our weekly shows are edited to time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offer to our members and podcast subscribers the full uncut conversation. These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our member supporters. Become a member today, go to https://Patreon.com/LauraFlandersandFriends. Watch the special report on YouTube; PBS World Channel December 14th, and on over 300 public stations across the country. Listen: Episode airing on community radio starting November 17th (check your local station schedule) & available as a podcast.
Synopsis: If you’re worried about authoritarianism, this episode reminds you that people-powered resistance still wins. Indivisible’s Ezra Levin and Hungarian organizer László Upor share creative, community-driven tactics — from joyful protests to bold campus actions — that pushed back against autocratic agendas. Their message: you have more power than you think.
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Description: If you care about resisting autocracy and building democracy, the U.S. has much to learn from Hungary. While Donald Trump rails against Europe, he and Hungary’s strongman leader, Viktor Orbán, have praised each other for years. Anti-democratic, anti-immigrant, anti-woman, anti-queer — Orbán and Trump came to power on parallel tracks with similar values. In their first interview together, Ezra Levin, the co-founder of Indivisible (the group behind No Kings!) and László Upor, a leader in one of Hungary’s most creative and visible resistance efforts, share their experiences of resisting authoritarianism. Upor is former Vice Rector and Acting Rector of the University of Theatre and Film Arts in Budapest — the one university that fought back when the Orbán administration began taking control of Hungary’s universities. Levin is the co-founder and co-executive director of Indivisible, the grassroots movement behind such protests as the historic Hands Off and No Kings rallies. From the principles of their organizing to frog suits and caution tape, today’s episode is a masterclass in creative resistance. Plus a commentary from Laura.
“Our enemy in this isn't Trump, it's not the Republicans. It's not the broader regime. Our enemy is this sense of cynicism or fatalism or nihilism . . . I do think a core principle in our communication philosophy is convincing people, you have power, you just gotta use it. The best way to use it is in concert with a lot of other people in your community.” - Ezra Levin
“You have to laugh at them, not be afraid of them . . . They don't understand mirth. They don't understand the derision. They think they are invincible. And when we don't give in, they don't understand what's going on.” - László Upper
Guests:
• Ezra Levin: Co-Founder & Co-Executive Director, Indivisible
• László Upor: Former Vice Rector & Acting Rector, University of Theatre and Film Arts (SzFE), Budapest, Hungary
Watch the episode released on YouTube; PBS World Channel December 14th, and on over 300 public stations across the country (check your listings, or search here via zipcode). Listen: Episode airing on community radio (check here to see if your station airs the show) & available as a podcast December 17th.
Full Episode Notes are located HERE.
Music Credit: 'Thrum of Soil' by Bluedot Sessions, 'Steppin' by Podington Bear, and original sound design by Jeannie Hopper
Support Laura Flanders and Friends by becoming a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/lauraflandersandfriends
RESOURCES:
* Recommended Book:
“We Are Indivisible: A Blueprint for Democracy After Trump” by Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin, Get the Book*
(*Bookshop is an online bookstore with a mission to financially support local, independent bookstores. The LF Show is an affiliate of bookshop.org and will receive a small commission if you click through and make a purchase.)
Related Laura Flanders Show Episodes:
• Congresswoman Jayapal & Marine Veteran Goldbeck: Standing Together Against the Administration’s War on Civilians: Watch / Listen: Full uncut interview and Episode cut
• Masha Gessen & Jason Stanley: Is it Doomsday for U.S. Democracy?: Watch / Listen: Full uncut interview and Episode cut
• Dolores Huerta & Ellen Gavin: Creative Courage in the Face of Fascism: Watch / Listen: Full uncut interview and Episode cut
Related Articles and Resources:
• Indivisible: A Practical Guide to Democracy on the Brink: Strategies, Tactics, & Tips for How Everyday Americans Can Fight Back Together Wherever We Live, lead authors Leah & Ezra -co-founders of Indivisible, Download the PDF and Audio Version
• The Three R’s Framework by Scot Nakagawa, October 1, 2025, Substack
•. Countering Authocratization: Lessons from the 2025 Harvard Nonviolent Action Lab Summit, October 16, 2025, Harvard Kennedy School: Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation
• Learning Republic: Students and Teachers from Hungary’s Theater and Film University Build an Alternative to Autocracy, by Alisa Solomon, Theater Magazine
• The Government Took Over Their University. Here’s How These Students Fought Back, by Todd London, September 16, 2025, Howlround Theatre Commons
• How to save the news. The internet has become a tool of misinformation and mass surveillance. A global initiative seeks to change that. by Marta Peirano, November 5, 2025, Prospect Avenue
• Artists Against Authoritarianism: A Talk by László Upor, September 2, 2025, Columbia University School of the Arts
Chapters:
Parallels Between Trump and Orbán: The Need for Resistance
00:00:00
Ezra Levin on Indivisible's Start and Current Focus
00:02:25
László Upor on Creative Resistance at Hungarian University
00:07:09
Why Ridicule and Joy are Key to Fighting Authoritarianism
00:11:03
László Upor on Creating a Free Society After University Takeover
00:22:42
Identifying the Cracks in Trump and Orbán's Power
00:28:27
Discussing Coalition Building and Tactical Innovation in Activism
00:34:22
Boycotts and the Future Story of Liberal Democracy
00:42:49
123 While our weekly shows are edited at the time for broadcast on Public TV and community radio, we offered to our members and podcast subscribers the full, uncut conversation.
These audio exclusives are made possible thanks to our member supporters.
0:23
If you care about the future, resisting autocracy or building democracy, we have a very special show for you today.
As many of you know, much as Donald Trump rails against Europe, there is one small country there that he adores.
Hungry.
0:38
He and its strongman leader Viktor Orban have praised each other for years.
Anti democratic, demagogic, pro Putin, pro Netanyahu, anti immigrant, anti woman, anti queer.
Orban and Trump came to power on parallel tracks with similar values, and if there is a model for the Trump administration, Orban's is the one most explicitly being followed by them today.
1:07
With our leaders in such a love fest, it stands to reason then that our two countries resistance movements have much to share.
So as we head into a critical winter for all of us, we have convened 2 experienced resistors from the United States.
1:26
We have Ezra Levin.
He is the cofounder and Co executive director of Indivisible, the grassroots movement behind such historic protests as the Hands Off and No Kings rallies that saw millions of people hit the streets earlier this year.
1:41
Indivisible is also actively involved in voter turn out efforts, including this fall's sweep of anti Trump election victories from Hungary.
We are lucky to welcome Laszlo Upor, former vice rector and acting rector of the University of Theatre and Film Arts in Budapest, Hungary.
2:00
When the Orban administration began taking control of Hungary's universities, only one fought back his.
And they did it in a world of inspiring ways.
As you'll hear, they've been busy ever since building an international alternative.
Clearly, both of our guests have stories to tell and perhaps questions to ask of each other.
2:20
What is working, what is not?
And where does the resistance to autocracy stand?
Welcome, both of you.
It is a pleasure to have you with me here on Laura Flanders and Friends.
I'm eager to get started, but I know that I've brought you each from many things to this conversation.
2:36
So as we begin just to kind of settle ourselves here, I'll ask you, you know, what's uppermost in your mind or on your heart as we start to speak.
Ezra, let's start with you.
Well, look, we're a practical movement.
So uppermost in my mind is the election that is literally right now, we're looking at an election in Tennessee in a in a district that really no Democrat should have any business competing in.
2:57
But this incredible organizer, this incredible legislator, Afton Bain, is running in a Trump plus 22 district and the election is today and the Republicans are scared.
There's such a wave against this regime right now that they're pulling out all the stops to save a Republican plus 22 district.
3:15
So I gosh, that's where my heart and my mind is right now.
All right, so Ezra Sizer on Tennessee.
What about you, Laszlo?
Well, I'm, I'm sitting in, in a New York apartment in Brooklyn now working on the English translation of, of my book I wrote about the resistance movement.
3:32
I don't know if I should be proud of being Hungarian or or ashamed of being one, depending on whose playbook we are playing from.
Is it Orban's playbook followed by Trump or the playbook of the resistance?
You know, of, of examples.
3:48
But I'm, I'm, I'm certainly very proud of, of being here with the two of you together.
Like as I learned, one of one of the most influential people in the United States, Ezra was voted for.
So it's, it's a great privilege to be here.
As for back in Hungary, we are working on the on the future of of a free society.
4:09
We will probably discuss later.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, thank you all for that.
Let's begin with giving our audience a bit of a sense of your back story or maybe your kind of beginning story.
And Ezra, again, I'll come to you.
People may not realize you've gotten involved with Indivisible during Trump's second term that you actually began in his first term when you and your wife, Leah Greenberg, were responding to his first election.
4:38
So 2016, if you can cast your mind back to that moment and what you thought you were doing, then that might help us get a sense of how things have progressed.
Yeah.
Look, we didn't think we were starting some sort of big national effort like this.
4:55
We we were former congressional staffers.
We had both worked on Capitol Hill for members of Congress during the rise of the Tea Party.
So we had seen a right wing grassroots movement push back against a popular trifecta Democratic government.
Obama had just one with big margins.
He had the House, he had the Senate.
5:12
He was pushing forward a bold policy agenda.
And suddenly out of nowhere, this Tea Party force started rising up all over the country.
My boss was targeting by Leah, boss in Congress was targeted by it, and they were organizing locally and pushing their elected officials.
5:27
I disagreed with their racism, I disagree with their violence, I disagree with their ideology.
But damn it, they knew how to organize locally and use the tools available to constituents to push back.
Flash forward to 2016.
Trump wins.
And it wasn't just his win that led us to try to start Indivisible.
5:46
It was two things. 1A future Trump appointee talking about the Japanese internment camps during World War 2 as a model for what to do with immigrants and refugees and Muslims.
That was terrifying.
That was horrifying.
But then second was an interview with incoming Minority Leader on the Democratic side of the Senate, Chuck Schumer, in which he said, well, we lost the election.
6:07
That's what happens sometimes.
We're just going to have to figure out ways to work with Trump.
That was shocking to me.
That was shocking to Leah.
That was shocking to a lot of folks who viewed Trump as an existential threat to our democracy and somebody who needed to be resisted, not worked with, not some somebody to figure out where the common ground is, but to stop his agenda before it can get off the tracks.
6:30
And so we wrote a guide basically drawing on our experiences working against the Tea Party.
We saw what they did so effectively and said, look, you don't have to like what they were fighting for, but you can appreciate the power of local organizing in a Democratic Republic.
6:46
We can do this.
And so we put out a Google Doc called Indivisible, a guide to resisting the trumpet, and then thought maybe this will be helpful to somebody out there who is looking for how to build and wield power in this moment.
And shockingly, people read it.
7:01
And then even more shockingly, they started forming individual groups all over the country.
Beautiful.
That all started.
That is a great back story.
And Laszlo, I'm going to come to you for a back story.
I mean, you too found yourself in a moment, and I'm going to ask you to describe a particular moment where you looked around at what your skills were and what you could do faced with a serious sort of existential threat to the institution that you were a part of.
7:28
I'm thinking of August, the end of August, August 31st, 2020.
Not the beginning of your story by any means, but a night that was so.
No, no, of course, of course not.
But let me first say that I really admire Indivisible and the name itself.
It has a lot because Indivisible is very, very visible.
7:46
And that's one of the, one of the major points is I think that's, that's part of, of our success, both Indivisible and our, our story.
I'm, you know, I, I was a happy literary translator and dramaturg who became leader of the University of Theatre and film with not wanting it.
8:04
But this is what I became.
And that was the point when the government decided to take over all the Hungarian universities, of which only our university said, hey, that's, that's not right.
We, we will take that.
After several months of, of, of the staff and, and faculty resisting the government, eventually the, the, the students started organizing.
8:28
And from that point on, we were, you know, marching together, students and, and, and faculty and with the, with the growing national and international support as a background, we first create, well, we created a, a thing we call the Learning Republic.
8:47
But that was preceded by the, the whole leadership resigning and the students occupying the, the main building of the university that they kept under blockade for 71 long days.
And those days were filled with creative actions, very theatrical, very spectacular actions.
9:09
And it I, I could go on about that for three weeks without even stopping and and I wouldn't.
Well, describe one.
I mean there, there is an incredible scene that I've seen of of people, your colleagues and collaborators passing a charter from hand to hand to the parliament.
9:30
Describe Laszlo what that was what we.
Do what happened was the, the government when they decided to take over the universities, they, they rewrote all the basic documents, the bylaws, the funding document, cetera, et cetera.
So we decided to write something they cannot rewrite and we call that Charter University Tattoo.
9:50
And we sent that document from the blockaded building that was day five of the blockade.
We sent that document from the, from the entrance of the university to the to the parliament.
And the document, the actual physical document traveled via 15,000 hands of supporters say it was like a five mile long snake, human snake through the whole city and every one of them touched that document basically hand signed the document became accomplices in our crime against the liberal state well.
10:30
It's a beautiful example of one of many, many actions and it indicates it drives home the creativity in what you did in Hungary and what you continue to believe in as a principle you.
Too.
So if I.
Yeah, go ahead.
So if I can add one more thing, it immediately involved and included people.
10:51
So people were not just audiences to our actions, but they actually were invited to join.
Well, that's what I wanted to pull out so.
So you're both communicators, you're both in the business of communicating and very successful.
11:08
You are at it too.
And one of my questions is, have you defined what the principles are guiding your efforts at communication or your communication tactics, Ezra?
That is a big wow.
What I I'm not going to ask that question before what are the principles of our community?
11:24
What are the?
Principles.
I mean, I'm hearing Laszlo just mentioned involvement.
We want to involve people, not just tell people what to do.
Well, I think one of the things that we've that has been foundational to the work we've done from the very beginning.
I think it was helped because we didn't expect to start anything.
11:40
We didn't think we were starting an organization.
We didn't think we were starting a movement.
We thought we were providing some useful information to folks.
The the number one response that we got when we put that guy down, which was all about how dangerous Trump was, how bad this regime was going to be, how much we needed to organize and fight back, was folks saying that they had hope after reading it.
12:03
And we didn't write the guide to give people hope.
We wrote the guide to tell people they had power.
This idea that people have power but they've got to exercise it is foundational to just about everything we put out in the world.
You will see me or Leah or other national Indivisible staff talking to reporters or talking on big calls, but we're not the leaders of the movement.
12:28
The leaders of the movement are the folks who are actually organizing on the ground.
And it's really, really important to us that people aren't consuming indivisible content for the purposes of being entertained or even being informed.
12:45
They should be consuming content for the purpose of then using it in some way in their actual lives.
So this thing that Laszlo is pointing, pushing on of participatory democracy is so, so important because what they want, what the regime wants is to isolate us, make us feel alone and put us in a position of scrolling through social media in this passive way, just accepting what the regime does.
13:15
And so our enemy in this isn't, is not Trump, it's not the Republicans, it's not it's not the broader regime.
Our enemy is the sense of cynicism or fatalism or nihilism, this sense that nothing we do matters, so why even try?
So, Laurie, you're asking me this now?
13:32
I hadn't really thought about in this way, but I do think a a core principle in our communication philosophy is convincing people you have power, you just got to use it.
The best way to use it is in concert with a lot of other people in your own community.
Oh, and lastly, I mean, this is singing your song, isn't it?
13:49
All right, reading from your script.
No, no, but, but no.
That's, that's you.
You gave me loads of clues because I think the key to our movement was a very indivisible the, the unity and the solidarity, unbreakable solidarity between staff and, and the students, faculty and the students.
14:11
And the other one is that it was a very multi phased movement.
So it was not, not like a movement be the leader that you can hunt down.
It was loads of loads of faces, loads of faces that became familiar faces for the whole country because the whole fight was going on for several months.
14:30
But people learned them, they, they got to, to know those people.
And that was very important.
We, we shared responsibility in, in everything.
And, and the other thing is to, to, to share some kind of an example that you don't have to be afraid.
14:48
There's nothing to be scared of.
And we definitely, none of us, not, neither the students nor the faculty behaved as victims.
We didn't believe they were victims.
So I think they they were the key things that the, you know, the multi faces, the unity, the indivisibility and the fearlessness of the whole movement.
15:12
And of course, the spectacular.
You know, it was entertaining too.
However tragic, still entertaining.
Talk more about that, because I think entertaining has become an element of protest in the US More recently.
I'm thinking about the No Kings protests of this year that have seen people come out in green frog suits and all sorts of suits to try to kind of ridicule the authoritarian tone and the policing that's happening in our in very frightening ways.
15:43
That ridicule is important.
And you did that too, Laszlo, right?
Absolutely.
You you have to laugh at them, not not be afraid of them.
And they feel they feel, you know, they will duck at some point.
They cannot do they cannot, they cannot face mirth.
16:01
They don't understand mirth.
They don't understand the the region.
They, you know, they think they are invincible and then they just don't give in.
They don't understand what's going on.
So give us an example of another action while we think about involvement.
16:19
Ezra, you're no King's slogan.
People pick that up in so many ways and made it their own.
And you see the signs for, you know, months after the demonstration in people's windows.
Laszlo, I know that when the students took over the university, you kind of barricaded yourselves in with caution tape, which in Hungary is is red and white, not yellow.
16:41
And that tape ended up everywhere as a kind of visual connecting device.
Was that anticipate?
Was that carefully thought out in advance or it just happened?
No, no, no, nothing was no, no, nothing was it.
It happened almost accidentally.
16:58
The students first wanted to to blockade the building with planks like as a fortress.
And the chancellor, who was very, very much in favor of the resistance, he was a good guy.
He said, though this is not safe.
You cannot escape.
If there's anything wrong going on, do something that you can go through.
17:17
And they said, OK, let's let's get some, some red and white tapes.
And he became very spectacular.
So people started coming to the building and say, OK, this is a piece of art.
Of course our students were all artists, like visual artists, theatre people, film people, media people.
17:35
So they use their own talents.
And that that that tape became one of the, the major symbols.
So when the, when the human chain happened, what we described earlier and it was COVID time, so we distributed pieces of this red and white tape so they could keep the, the social distance.
17:56
But that means that we distributed thousands and thousands of pieces of that thing.
And we told people, don't throw them away because that's garbage, that's pollution.
Take them home.
So they took them home and thousands and thousands of people suddenly had that, that little tape.
So it became a fashion.
18:12
And the same happened with the, with the mask.
The students had yellow masks, all of them, and yellow masks with the, the other symbol, the, the, you know, the raised hands painted on it.
And 10s of thousands, I mean literally 10s of thousands of, of people all around Hungary were ordering it by mail.
18:32
They wanted to have that.
So you were travelling the the country and you met at the petrol station 300 miles from Budapest.
You met another guy with the same mask and waving to each other.
Are you too?
Me too, yes.
Ezra coming to you, I mean the US is not hungry and theatre occupies a different, I have to say lesser place in in our kind of pantheon of powerful institutions in this country.
18:57
But we have our own.
And I'm wondering as you listen to Laszlo, what are the parallels or where do you see similarities, differences and and do you think that you've learned things about what inspires people and involves people and what doesn't?
I'm assuming Indivisibles had some dud ideas along the way.
19:14
We've had plenty of dud ideas.
I one of the there's a lot that resonated with what Laszlo's done and we've taken inspiration from what y'all have done in Hungary.
I just want to say that out loud.
I think we are, we are not by training, you know, resistance experts.
I was an anti poverty advocate and Leah worked on anti human trafficking work.
19:31
We worked in congresses and advocates.
When we started organizing, we were looking around for ideas about how do you fight back against not just a right wing administration, but an authoritarian regime, a regime that is systematically attacking other sources of power.
19:48
And one of these lessons that came out is ridicule is such an important weapon.
So just a plus one with Leslie was saying here, I loved what you said.
If they don't understand mirth, that is so true.
They they want to be feared.
They want to be accused of being an authoritarian, of being a strong man that they like that it can't afford is to be ridiculed to be made fun of.
20:10
Then they don't understand it.
They can't engage with it.
And also it means that you were people powered protest is fun and popular and people want to be part of it.
Or or.
Solution to this problem is getting historic number, numbers of people involved pushing back against the regime.
20:28
You can't do that.
If this is some kind of serious, sad, scary, violent conflict with the regime, they will win.
The regime is a monopoly on violent force in this country.
They will win that.
We do not want to engage in violence.
We do not want this to be a sad thing that you have to do because it's always serious.
20:47
We want this to be joyous resistance.
We want this to be something that you're gonna feel like you're missing out if you don't come to this protest, because it's gonna be a fun time.
So you talked about Alora the, the, the unicorns of the frogs.
You, you go to a no kinks protest.
21:02
You see dancing, you see laughing, you see people bringing their dogs and their kids and their grandmas.
You see hilarious signs ridiculing the regime that is core to what we're doing.
And it, it's really difficult for an authoritarian regime to combat that because how do you push back against people having a good time exercising their basic rights to show up in public with each other?
21:25
They want to describe us as some kind of, I don't know, violent or subversive movement, but we show with our actual actions what we're doing.
And they, they, they don't know how to push back against that.
It's.
Plus, it is really hard to arrest people in those green suits.
21:43
Just saying.
As we say on this show, this is the place where the people who say it can't be done take a backseat to the people who are doing it.
From our recent conversations with Dolores Huerta on courage, or with the federal workers blowing the whistle at HUD, or with the congresswoman and the Marine veterans standing together against the militarization of our cities, we seek out stories that can inform and even inspire.
22:09
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In pendant journalism like ours only survives because people like you believe it matters.
If you value bold reporting on grounded solutions for a fairer future for all, please consider making a donation today at lauraflanders.org.
22:29
And thank you for standing with us at Laura Flanders and Friends and for helping to keep independent journalism like ours alive and kicking while we're talking.
You know, you have now filled me with joy and happiness.
22:45
But it has to be said that we are still living in authoritarian times.
And Laszlo, I mean, coming to Hungary, it's not as if you quote UN quote one, the government did not change.
It did not give you back your university.
It did take over that institution.
23:02
It did take over a lot of the theatres and the arts and media and is in power.
So how do you assess, as it were, quote, UN quote, You know what works or success or victory?
Why, you know, it would be easy and funny to say that we lost everything, but we still didn't lose or we didn't mean anything, but we won.
23:25
But This is why I really think that they couldn't break us, which is very important.
And we gave an example that it is possible, resistance is possible.
And also we found a way out because eventually then it was impossible to get the university back when it, but it was clear that the autonomy of the university is, is done not only for us, but the whole higher education sector in, in Hungary.
23:54
We decided to leave, you know, to leave the system.
And we we set up an independent free society and we are penny less, but we can go on working, educating, creating, etcetera, etcetera.
So.
Explain that further.
24:09
What do you mean by your own independent liberated society?
Well, about eventually after many, many months of, of, of fights and when the blockade was done and all that stuff was over, about half of the students and half of the faculty left the university for good.
24:31
And we formed a society we call Free SFA Society, where SFA is acronym for the University of Theatre and Film.
And we joined forces with five European art universities and they agreed on creating an umbrella to accept, to adopt our students, the students who left the old university so those students could finish their studies seamlessly under the the leadership of their old teachers.
25:04
Because the trick was, which is not trick, it's all legal, that we went on teaching them in Budapest, commissioned by one of those universities to teach their students who were actually our students.
And this we called the emergency exit program.
25:19
So all the university students who left the old institution could finish at one or the other European institution and get the the diplomas, which is an exceptional thing.
It's very, very easy to be proud of, I think.
And, and in this society that reformed to basically to administer this emergency exit, we go on teaching in a different set up because now we cannot give them certificates.
25:47
We, they have to, unfortunately they have to pay tuition fee, which wasn't the case with the previous university.
But still we teach, we invite people and people come and, and, and study with us.
And very recently this society was provided an abundant school building by by the city, which is, you know, in opposition with the government.
26:13
So I'm not saying it's a happy ending, but it's a way out and it's an alternative way out.
And so I think All in all, although it's difficult, it may be called a success story.
Any thoughts, Ezra, on that, that idea of creating a kind of a parallel institution of a kind perhaps for one that's been shut down?
26:32
Look, we have two options.
We can give into the fascist or we can fight back.
I mean, that's it, That's it.
So I am in favor of never giving up.
I'm in favor of never giving up.
There's not going to be some decisive moment in the US or in some other country where we say, okay, democracy is lost and we're never giving it back.
26:50
There's also not going to be some decisive moment where we've won democracy and we can all just go home.
It is a participatory sport.
We either get engaged and show up and organize however we can using the tools available to us, or we let the other, we let the fascist win.
Those are the choices.
27:05
And so if you if you under, if you understand that the challenge in front of us in that way, yes, I'm in fully in vapor of what Laszlo is doing and figuring out, OK, given the constraints that you're currently facing, given the obstacles in front of you right now, what you can do, What can you do right now?
27:20
What can your group of pro democracy advocates and organizers do in this moment?
And they're going to be different opportunities to folks available to folks in Hungary versus folks elsewhere in Europe versus folks in the United States.
That's just the reality.
And what we advise people to do is to not just live in the clouds, but focus on practically what can you actually do in the United States, What you can do, I'm in Texas right now.
27:43
What you can do in rural Texas is very different than what you can do in California or Illinois or in Washington, DC.
That's just the reality.
And also, if we all organize and bring people together wherever we are, we're going to find opportunities.
They're going to be different opportunities, but we're going to to find opportunities and if we're if we want democracy to reassert itself, that's what we got to do.
28:05
I'm sorry, I was going to say that that you must be ready to sacrifice a little.
And if you do, you feel you will find that it's it's surprisingly little.
You have to seek sacrifice if everyone is ready to.
28:22
I've heard from so many people that their time in struggle is the best time of their lives.
Coming back to you, Ezra, for a second, I am interested in the kind of cracks in the edifice and we saw some in the elections of this fall were just extraordinary cross the board victories by Democrats and anti Trump candidates at every level from the courts right up through Senate seats and governorships.
28:47
What do you think are the most widening cracks right now or or the things that perhaps are doing the most to turn people against the Trump administration?
You've got corruption, you've got sleaziness, sex scandals, you've got bullying, which you've got Marjorie Taylor Green and others talking about war crimes, possibly just plain old cruelty.
29:12
Like what do you think is going to turn or is turning the tide?
Well, I think about where we were a year ago, shortly after the election, the conventional wisdom in DC and around the country was Trump won and he runs it decisively.
He he was leading a Republican Senate and House and president say he was going to get what he wants.
29:31
And the smart move for Democrats and for everybody else was to get in line.
Think about back in 2017, there was this sense of resistance.
There was this sense of this isn't normal and we're going to push back everybody from the Washington Post, that Democratic leadership, that other companies to media.
29:46
There was a sense that there was going to be a fight.
That's not what 2025 looked like.
The elites all around the country just were falling over themselves to fall in line behind the regime.
We saw this from Amazon.
We saw this from Facebook.
We saw this from Google.
30:02
We saw this from Apple.
We saw this from media institutions like the Washington Post and from CNN.
And that there was a scary period earlier this year where it looked like Trump was going to succeed in consolidating power in this country.
And I think the thing that has worked is mass, peaceful, organized people power starting very early on in February and March, we were holding massive town halls where Republicans and Democrats alike were coming back home.
30:29
And these libraries and community centers and public gatherings were just filled to the brim of people saying, why are you going along with, at that time, Elon Musk?
Why are you allowing to run roughshod over the entire country?
And Elon Musk got kicked out of the White House.
He's no longer working there.
30:46
That was followed by protests for hands off.
That was followed by the 1st No Kings Day on June 14th.
That was followed by Labor Day and by No Kings too.
And then by these incredible election results.
What what is shifting people?
And I think it's it's two things.
31:01
One, Trump is overreaching.
He is doing deeply unpopular things, a smart authoritarian in that position who is really disciplined.
I think he might have had a shot to very quickly and decisively consolidate power by doing things that are popular with the general public.
31:18
But he got a lot of votes from people who were worried about the prices of bread and eggs.
He's not doing anything about the price of bread and eggs.
So a lot of non MAGA voters who were willing to give him a shot are now feeling betrayed and disappointed because instead of seeing their lives improve, what they're seeing is the East Wing of the White House be demolished and a long list of corporate sponsors handing out donations to Trump directly.
31:40
So I think a combination of large scale people, protests that makes clear that this guy isn't inevitable, that this period we're in is temporary and democracy will reassert itself combined with what everybody can see with their own eyes.
So this is one of the most corrupt regimes in American history and that their lives aren't getting better.
31:57
I think that combined is producing the kinds of cracks and edifice as you say that we're currently seeing.
It was the elections a few weeks ago and it's this current orientation of the regime that's a a little less sure on its feet.
That doesn't mean we're going to win.
It doesn't mean we're out of the woods.
32:13
But I do think in the last few weeks we've seen a vibe theft.
Is there are there cracks in the Hungarian edifice to Laszlo?
Does Viktor Orban have an Achilles heel?
No, I, I think there is now maybe the first time in 15 years.
32:31
But first let, let me react to what you said.
I think that's very, I mean, knocking is, is such a wonderful thing.
You, you need to have a title, a slogan, something that tells people what the whole thing is about, but in a playful way.
And it, it sticks.
32:49
So back to Hungary now, probably the first time in in many, many years it, it looks that the opposition has some, some chance to to win or run.
If, if you know, if victory in the election is, is possible at all.
33:05
We, we don't know, certainly we won't have a fair election.
We, we haven't had one for many, many years now.
But even with the unfair elections, there's a chance that Orban we lose.
What happens after that I don't know.
33:21
But that's, that's partly due to I think the, the people really being dissatisfied with what is happening.
And, and, and strangely little.
Sadly, the, the cracks appeared a little more than a year ago, a year and a half ago related to child abuse case.
33:45
And I I mean strangely, because there have been so many other similar things over the past years and almost decades and nothing happened.
But now it seems that there is something really, really going on.
It has echoes of our own situation, I think.
34:05
As we talk about certainly echoes.
The administration trips over something that you couldn't have predicted would be the the decisive trip.
I guess I'd like to ask the two of you if you have questions for one another, if you have something you want to learn from, from each other.
34:27
It sounds like you've both been aware of the work happening in one another's countries.
I I imagined that was going to be the case, but is there something you wish you had known or wish you had had in place that you want to share with the other Ezra?
34:44
Well, one, one regular strategic question last night that I'd be, I'd be curious, how have you all tackled this in Hungary?
Is there there's kitchen I see within the, you know, anti regime space between folks who are comfortable building a broad coalition of no.
35:00
And this is an ideologically diverse coalition of folks from, you know, socialist to Never Trump Republicans who don't like what the regime is doing and are comfortable in that space to people who I think very rightfully say, look, saying no isn't enough.
Not having an alternative is one of the things that got us to this point.
35:16
And it's actually important for us to build a movement that can very clearly say, this is what we are for.
But by its very nature, that's a smaller movement.
And I'm curious if you saw similar dynamics in Hungary, if there were folks who were comfortable saying, look, we're against or bond, and that's it.
35:33
And we agree on that.
And that's where we're going to agree and how that coalition building worked with folks who are more committed to getting to a place of yes about what comes after urban.
Great question.
That's a, that's a great question.
35:49
And if you have like 2 weeks, we could discuss that.
No, it's, it's a very, very fundamental question.
And the one of one of the major problems I see in in Hungary that this division between the two groups and I, I don't know how we can consolidate between those two.
36:06
I think that will actually decide the, the, the next elections.
But, but, but again, I think we will, we, we must do everything to kind of, you know, push this a little back and, and focus on, on how to, how to get rid of, of the autocrat.
36:27
And I think the most important thing is to, to, to, to convince people that there is nothing to be afraid of, you know, as long as we, as we act together.
I, I know it sounds a bit too sentimental and not traumatic, but this is what I really believe.
36:46
But I, yes, I, I can't, I can't, you know, I can't answer your question really.
Do you have a question?
Ezra, do you Laszlo, have a question for Ezra?
Yeah, I, I not question, it's a, it's a, it's a comment.
37:02
I one, one of the, one of the great wonders of, of your movement is which, which I can relate very much to, is that you don't get tired.
You go on and on and on because that's one of the keys.
Don't let them lean back.
37:21
We should come up with something every single day.
And this, this is what I experienced throughout all those months of our, of our movement that the students came up with something every single day, something that attracted supporters and something that frightened the, the, the government propaganda.
37:41
And you know, their, their representatives and I, I, I, I have high hope in, in, in, in that thing with your movement.
Like I can, I read the news every single day.
Oh, something happened here, something happened there and it happens all over.
37:59
I know it's not a question but I I just wanted to share this.
So we we talk about the the challenge of tactical freeze.
I learned that phrase from Zenet to Factory.
She had a great book, Twitter and Tear Gas maybe 10 or so years ago about the social movements during the the era of social media.
38:15
And one of the challenges is when movements get good at a thing, maybe it's a certain type of protest or a certain type of March, they can just do that thing, but that will pretty quickly stop having an impact.
And so figuring out tactical innovation is a core part of how we try to engage in the world.
38:34
We can't just keep on doing the exact same thing if we want to grow the movement and have more people come out.
So I was really excited earlier this year when there was a mass response to the capitulation from Disney and ABC when they fired Jimmy Kimmel, this comedian who is critiquing Trump.
38:51
They fired him and 1.7 million people cancelled their subscriptions.
We had protests outside ABC and Disney headquarters.
And immediately they were just about immediately, they, they, they backtracked, they, they hired him back on.
They put him back on the air, and that's not the kind of thing we normally do.
39:10
We're normally focused on a member of Congress or maybe a senator or a state legislature.
But figuring out ways to apply pressure in different places that might attract more people who don't think of themselves as activists, who don't think of themselves as organizers but don't like the idea that their favorite comedian is going off there and suddenly this is relevant to their lives.
39:31
I think that kind of tactical innovation is really, really important to us.
It's also not easy.
To your, your point, Laura earlier, sometimes we try if it just doesn't work and that's OK, that is OK.
We encourage a lot of we, we a lot of innovation.
We throw a lot of stuff at the walls and if it doesn't stick, then we go on to the next thing.
39:49
I think one of the reasons why we're able to do this though is like, I'm not leaving all these.
It's not like I've got a long Excel sheet somewhere with all the ideas and we're going down and we were to distribute a movement where there are thousands of local group leaders and I'll just leave.
I've been speaking a lot so I'll just leave with this.
So one of the something beautiful that's been really encouraging to me for the last 10 years, she had just been coming off of, she had taken a few months off and, and come back to the local Indivisible group.
40:13
And she said, look, when when one of us takes a breath, the choir keeps singing.
And I think that is core.
We do have to keep on pushing back against the regime.
But at an individual level that can burn you out.
And if you're building groups of resistance, if you're building locally led and operated groups of resistance, that means individually you can take a break.
40:33
This doesn't have to be day in day out for you every single day, but you can be a part of a community that does continue the work and is innovating and trying all these cool tactics, some of which will work, some of which won't, but some of which like no kings get scaled up.
I didn't come up with no kings that came out of the movement.
40:49
We saw no king signs in the streets earlier this year and we said that's a great idea, we should go with that, and that then was taken national.
You talk about why you know, distributed leadership and distributed movement, Laszlo, you've benefited from sort of European distributed leadership and movement and you've had support of lots of celebrities and and theater artists who are part, I would say, of your community, right?
41:16
Absolutely.
You know, support came from all over the world, I mean literally all over the world.
The theatre and media community, just to name a few.
Kate Blanchett, Ian McKellen, Robert Wilson, you know, so loads and loads of people everyone would, would recognize and they knew what they were talking about.
41:36
They didn't just give their signature.
They knew the situation, they knew us, they knew our education and creation so that without that, that support, we couldn't have done anything but that.
That is open, that is open to every one of us.
If you reach out, if you don't just focus on ourselves, but reach out to the others, which again with our movement was very true that our students reached out to others, help the others in need, etcetera, etcetera.
42:03
And they got back from from those communities.
And the other thing if I may, I wanted to add to answers.
I think it's important not to ask anyone to do something they, they are not able to do, but contribute the way they, they can.
42:23
So if you're a Carpenter, you, you can build the stage for the, for the, the speakers.
If, if you're a technician, you can, you know, do the mic.
If, if you're, if you're a producer, you will manage the, the crowd.
So we can all add our and then you will come up with independent ideas like no kings, because I'm involved.
42:44
I want to have, I want to, you know, make it even better.
Well, on that note, it was a genius insight, I think, of Indivisible to encourage people to protest where they are instead of requiring that they make the lift to get to a big city capital somewhere far from them.
43:03
Are there other initiatives you want to share right now, Ezra or Laszlo?
And then I'd love you to each answer the question that we always ask our guests at the end of these episodes, which is what do you think a story will be that the future tells of this moment, whether we're talking 2550 years, what will the future say about us?
43:23
But Ezra, is there, Is there a campaign you want to mention in a gentle kind of way right here, right now?
Sure.
So as I mentioned earlier, I, I think a lot of the damage is being done by the administration directly or by the legislature, the Republicans who are working in concert with the regime.
43:42
But actually a lot of the threat that I see that I'm I'm most worried about are the attacks on other sources of power.
So it's not purely legislative, It's not purely coming from the executive branch.
They are attacking media, they are attacking businesses, they are attacking universities, just as they were in Hungary and aren't hungry.
44:00
They're, they're, they're attacking other sources of power in this country.
And so I, I don't think it's enough for us just to vote.
I don't think it's enough for us just to organize, to push our legislators.
I think we have to exercise our power as consumers, as economic agents.
44:15
So right now we're, we're part of an effort that that is directly boycotting a handful of companies that are helping the regime.
Spotify right now is running nice recruitment ads.
They're running recruitment ads for the secret police.
This is a, a place where people listen to punk music and in between their punk songs, they're hearing recruitment ads for the secret police force.
44:35
We shouldn't give them money.
We should just not give them money.
It's easy to do that.
We look at Amazon, you look at Home Depot, These are big national organizations, multinational organizations that are directly cutting deals with the regime.
We, we don't have to give them our money.
44:50
We can instead be supporting businesses elsewhere.
And if we do it in accordance fashion, we're not going to win them all over.
But we will send a message that for that marginal institution, whether it's a media institution or a business or a university, they can't just make the decision, well, we're being bullied now, so the smart move is for us to capitulate.
45:13
They have to think, wait, there's going to be reputational damage here.
We might actually be negatively impacted if we simply go along with the regime or seek business with their secret police force.
We want that as part of their calculus.
And so I would encourage folks to you can check out indivisible.org or check out your local organizing hub, but find ways to apply this power that's not purely focused just on the legislature, purely focused on elections, but is using your economic power now as well as we lead to what I hope will be a historic midterm elections next year.
45:45
Laszlo, you have something on the horizon.
Well, not really now.
I mean, we, we try and, and participate in, in all kinds of local fights and political fights.
But, but in a way, we've done our stuff years ago and we serve as an example.
46:02
And I know that people and, and organizations use our example as a, as a, as an example.
But, but, but what what is always important is to to convince people that you shouldn't be an an accomplice to the power is just out of of of you know, because it's more comfortable to switch on Spotify or Amazon.
46:24
You you should give up on on those things to, to, to, to have resistance.
There was life before Spotify.
So what about that future question?
What do you think is the story that the future will tell of this moment?
46:40
Laszlo, you're, you're a storyteller.
What?
Thank you for one thing for having your book translated from Hungary and I can't wait to be able to read it.
Thank you.
I can't.
But what is what do you think is the story or the play that will be made about these times by the people of the future?
46:58
I think there this one big question future we'll ask like, what do you mean a liberal democracy?
I think that's, you know, they they will just not understand.
I hope they will not understand what this whole thing was about the absurdity of these times.
47:18
And I hope they will laugh at us.
A liberal democracy being the the best term people have come up with for describing what's happening in Hungary.
A tautology in itself.
Yeah, but that's, you know, that's a, that's a contradiction in terms.
Ezra, what about you?
47:34
What story do you think the future will tell?
I think I have a guess, but.
Well I love the idea of in the future than just laughing at the ridiculousness of this.
Like how?
What on earth?
Donald Trump, a reality star, came in and implemented A fascist regime.
He started nationalizing the Guard and invading other other states, and the Republicans did nothing.
47:53
They just backed him up every step of the way.
There was no fracture.
How did that even happen?
And after, with some years of distance and with the danger gone, it will all just be a ridiculous episode because democracy will reassert itself.
DC will be a state.
Puerto Rico will get self determination.
48:09
We'll get money out of politics.
We'll make voting day a national holiday.
We're guaranteed voting rights.
And we'll actually have a democracy that reflects the will of the people.
And we'll take it for granted until the next threat is on our doorstep and we'll have to organize again.
Beautiful.
Great way to end.
48:25
I thank you both.
This conversation could clearly continue.
It's been really a pleasure listening to you and listening to you in conversation with each other.
It's a joy.
Thank you.
Thank you and lastly, thanks for being an inspiration to pro democracy organizers all around the world.
Thank you, it is a great inspiration for us what you do so.
48:45
Mutual appreciation society.
I love it.
I'm not out of curious.
I mean, not out of, you know.
Yeah, not of the Trump Orban kind.
Let's I really mind.
I think Trump and Orban might need it.
49:02
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