The police killing of Tyre Nichols in Memphis generated a significant amount of conversation and coverage, while the killing of environmental activist Manuel Esteban Paez Terán in a Georgia state police raid just weeks later has gotten considerably less attention. This time in our monthly feature, Meet the BIPOC Press, Laura Flanders and Sara Lomax of URL Media talk with two journalists who have been reporting on these stories for local Black-led outlets. Is there anything in their response that might deepen how we think about power and race, racism, police and public safety? Our guests are Gavin Godfrey, Atlanta editor at Capital B, and Report for America corps member Brittany Brown, a reporter at MLK50: Justice Through Journalism where she covers criminal justice and labor in Memphis. Full conversation & show notes are available at https://Patreon.com/theLFShow We are listener and viewer supported independent media. That's thanks to you! Please donate and become a member at Patreon.com/theLFShow
The police killing of Tyre Nichols in Memphis generated a significant amount of conversation and coverage, while the killing of environmental activist Manuel Esteban Paez Terán in a Georgia state police raid just weeks later has gotten considerably less attention. This time in our monthly feature, Meet the BIPOC Press, Laura Flanders and Sara Lomax of URL Media talk with two journalists who have been reporting on these stories for local Black-led outlets. Is there anything in their response that might deepen how we think about power and race, racism, police and public safety? Our guests are Gavin Godfrey, Atlanta editor at Capital B, and Report for America corps member Brittany Brown, a reporter at MLK50: Justice Through Journalism where she covers criminal justice and labor in Memphis.
“. . . We saw national media parachute into Memphis really covering the flashpoint moment that this was for the city . . . At MLK50, we're really focused on highlighting the continuing efforts that are going on every week.” - Brittany Brown
“I think what separates our coverage from local coverage in the city is that we are trying to find out how this affects the people that are the most affected. Most of [the] local news is talking to officials, law enforcement officials, and then getting a couple of quotes and clips from protestors without a lot of context.” - Gavin Godfrey
“Our communities need to have outlets . . . that are coming from the ground up and from our people. I'm really grateful that there is a new wave of Black media outlets that are doing the work in Atlanta, in Memphis, in Philadelphia, all over the country . . .” - Sara Lomax
Guests:
Brittany Brown: Criminal Justice & Labor Reporter, MLK50: Justice Through Journalism
Gavin Godfrey: Atlanta Editor, Capital B
Sara Lomax: Co-Founder, URL Media; President & CEO, WURD Radio
The Show is listener and viewer supported. That's thanks to you! Please donate and become a member.
Full conversation & show notes are available at Patreon.com/theLFShow
Chapters:
(0:00:00) - Covering Police Killings in the US
(0:09:51) - Self-Care in Trauma Reporting
(0:20:52) - The Legacy of Systemic Police Violence
Chapter Summaries:
(0:00:00) - Covering Police Killings in the US (10 Minutes)
This episode of Meet The BiPOC Press with URL media focuses on two events that occurred weeks apart in different parts of the US and how they connect. The first is the police killing of Tyre Nichols in Memphis after a traffic stop, and the second is the killing of queer environmental activist Manuel Esteban Paez Terán in Atlanta during a police raid. The conversation covers the quantity of coverage these stories have received, the proposed ninety million dollar police training complex in the Walloni forest, the response of the public and the ongoing efforts of activists and community organizers.
(0:09:51) - Self-Care in Trauma Reporting (11 Minutes)
This episode of the Laura Flanders show focuses on the two recent police-involved killings of Tyre Nichols in Memphis and Manuel Esteban Paez Terán in Atlanta. The conversation addresses the calls for more training and how the proposed police training center in Atlanta has sparked fear in the predominantly black community. The roundtable also discusses the power dynamics of police brutality when officers are black as well as the importance of trauma-informed reporting and setting boundaries for self-care.
(0:20:52) - The Legacy of Systemic Police Violence (9 Minutes)
This discussion focused on the events in Memphis over the past year, including the election of the first Democratic District Attorney in decades and the swift response to the misconduct of police officers. Questions were raised about the role of democracy and consent in this response, in addition to the issue of public safety. The conversation then shifted to the survey conducted by the mayor on the proposed COPC City training center, in which 69% of the population were against it. The participants discussed the need to ask better questions, and to listen to the people in order to facilitate a dialogue towards a solution.
0:00:00
Which separates our coverage from local coverage in the city is that we are trying to find out how this affects the people and who the most effective why are we? And this is a collective we continuing to bend over backwards and contort our minds and bodies to normalize this ongoing system of violence. Contacts really matters and our communities need to have outlets and voices and perspectives that are coming directly from the ground up. It's still coming up, Mallory Flanagan's show. The place where the people say it can't be done, take a backseat to the people who are doing it. What?
0:00:42
Police killings in the US continue to mount. According to the Washington Post database twenty twenty two was the worst year on record, and the rate in twenty twenty three is on track to be worse. Police killed one hundred and forty one people in this country in just the first seven weeks, a hundred and forty one people disproportionately young and black. The demographics don't change and nothing much else seems to either. The outrage typically wanes before the conversation, let alone the policy change can get very deep. This time, in our monthly feature, Meet The BIPOC Press with URL media, we're gonna focus on two events just weeks apart. The police killing of Tyre Nichols and Memphis after a traffic stop in the low crime middle income neighborhood where he lived, And by Georgia state police, the killing of queer environmental activist Manuel Esteban Paez Terán. During a police raid on an incitement of activists opposing what's been called COP City, a proposed ninety million dollar police training complex in the Walloni forest on the Atlanta City outskirts. Distinct in lots of ways, are there also ways these stories connect? And is there anything in the response that might deepen how we think about power and race, racism, and police, and public safety.
0:02:07
For this conversation, I'm joined by my colleague, Sarah Lomax, co founder of URL media and network of black and brown independent media outlets. And the president and CEO of WURD Radio, Pennsylvania's only African American owned torque radio station. And with us, two reporters who've been on these stories from the ground. From Capital B in Atlanta, Gavin Godfrey, Atlanta editor, and report for America corps member, Britney Brown, a reporter at MLK50 Justice Through Journalism, where she covers, criminal justice, and labor in Memphis, Tennessee. Let me start with you, Sarah. It's the first time we're seeing each other this year so far. How is it going for you? And welcome back. So far so good. It's great to be here with you, Laura, and I know this is gonna be a very dynamic conversation. Gavin, turning to you, for starters.
0:03:00
A SWAT Team, one guy dead, nineteen charged with domestic terrorism, an emergency declared national troops involved, and yet I feel like before we even get to the quality of the coverage, we need to speak to the quantity. I don't think the story of what happened there in Atlanta, what continues to be going on around COPC City is getting the attention it deserves, and certainly we don't know half of it. So can you fill us in really on on what happened and where things stand. Just take it back a little bit. You know, after the social unrest in the wake of George Floyd's murder, the death of Rayshard Brooks here in Atlanta.
0:03:38
The Atlanta Police Department had a real issue with morale. You know, they were losing officers. At the same time, the public community Atlanta wanted both more, you know, police officer accountability, but also we did want know, more in the way of public safety crime was a big issue and still is in Atlanta. So behind the scenes, even before that, there was talk of creating a new police training center for Atlanta police officers. And so what you have now is, you know, what our mayor is saying, and a lot of lawmakers were saying is response to creating this kind of nice new shiny facility that will help boost morale for those officers. Right? But in turn for the community, it's supposed to allegedly, you know, boost the training that will increase officer accountability. Right? And so This facility was built. As you mentioned, it's a ninety million dollars facility, thirty million dollars of which comes from taxpayer dollars. And when, you know, the the wall started rolling to actually start construction on this, over a thousand people reached out to the city council directly and called in roughly seventy percent of those calls are people in opposition of the construction of this facility.
0:04:45
And so in the midst of all of that, you had a group of organizers protesters, you know, taking up, I could say, setting up shop really in the in the South River Forest where this is located, South East Atlanta, in South Decab County. Southeast of the city, I should statement in South Decab County. And they were creating a community. They're living in tree houses. They even had a makeshift kitchen that they were using and operating out of to just, as they said, protest the destruction of this forests first and foremost, but secondly, of course, in opposition of what they saw was a militarization of the police force in Atlanta.
0:05:23
How long has the protest been going on? The forest dwellers started, I think, I believe, they first started setting up shopping around two years ago, twenty twenty one. And so they've been there for a couple of years. And then that time, You've had different clashes, and again, just like what's happening. With the shooting, it's a very much This side says this. This side says this. There's been clashes between police who've done previous sweep operations of this of this area to try to clear these folks out of there. And confrontations have happened were allegedly protesters through molotov cocktails, through rocks at officers. And as we mentioned, that led to the nineteen arrest total that have happened in over the course of these clashes. So it's been ongoing for for a while.
0:06:08
In this particular case, you've got an allegation that there was an officer wounded by a bullet that they claim came from Tehran's pistol. What do we know? And was there video footage? When the incident first happened, the narrative that was related to the press and to the public was that you know, mounted on, had actually fired a gun at these officers who were, you know, doing a sweep, trying to clear out the air. And that he shot first, you know, these these state troopers and other kind of there's a large collection of different agencies out there, return fire. I mean, independent autopsy from his from their family showed that they were hit thirteen times. And so, you know, again, the note is that to run fire first. They returned fire. And immediately after, you know, activists and stop cops that your protest rules were asking for body camera footage. First from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation State troopers, typically in Georgia, that footage is not readily available. Is what they came out and told us. But then also, the Atlanta Police Department was called upon to share video as well. And they, at at first said, you know, this isn't available. And then at nowhere, they seemingly just released four different videos.
0:07:23
We really broke down in our covers, the one forty minute clip. But in that clip, you hear a lot. You don't see anything in terms of the interaction that led to Panisturan's death. So there it it honestly raised a lot more questions than answers, but you see kind of both sides of the argument. The lawmakers, our mayor, our governor, saying, you know, we're being transparent here's what you wanted. And, you know, on the other side, the folks are saying, well, this actually kind of shows or kind of poke holes in the in the narrative that Tehran shot first.
0:07:57
Brittany, You are a reporter for MLK fifty in Memphis. It's a black media outlet. And I'm really curious, you know, the Tyree Nichols case has gotten national, probably international coverage, but what don't we know that you all who are on the ground a black media outlet that are covering this issue in a much more nuanced way what are some of the things that we aren't hearing that you all know about and can cover uniquely through MLK fifty? Yeah. Well, I mean, we're really focused on that ongoing effort that we're seeing come from the community, that we're seeing come from protesters and community organizers. Now immediately in the aftermath of the killing of Tyree Nichols, you know, we saw national media tear shoot into Memphis really covering, you know, the the flashpoint moment that that this was for the city. And now that that, you know, sort of national media interest has kind of waned. Right now, you know, MLK fifty, we're really focused on highlighting the continuing efforts that are going on every week. There are a handful of events, whether it's protests, or direct action events or healing events because, you know, the killing of Tyre Nichols, unfortunately, is not the only sort of trauma that Memphians are reeling with and trying to cope with with and trying to get through and cope with. Right? Now. We're focusing our energy on what organizers, what community members, what protesters are saying they want to see. From the city council, from the county commission, you know, real solutions. You know, they're they're really standing firm in the fact that you know, they want Tyre Nichols' death to be the last death at the hands of Memphis police. And so they're working diligently to try to put forth solutions that will really bring that bring that standards for life.
0:09:51
Britney, I was very struck that you had done a lot of interviews with other black men who had had similar experiences in traffic stops to to Tyre's. What did you learn in that? And then the other thing that just so strikes me is that what we constantly hear and I think you've been reporting on there in Memphis are these calls for more training and yet it's a police training center that is the context in which this other killing just took place in Atlanta. But first, you know, what did you find? And were those people who'd had similar experiences reluctant to talk to you hard to find? No. Not hard to find just because of how regular that practice is of MPD targeting and harassing or making black men. And other people of color, you know, feeling uncomfortable uncomfortable during police stops. They weren't necessarily reluctant to talk about it, but I knew going into these conversations I really wanted to turn on, you know, that trauma informed rep reporting just because I I didn't wanna go in and, you know, re traumatized now. My I knew that the things that they were going going to be talking about to me, you know, were very, very difficult moments. And so I've made sure, you know, I set the table and, you know, as questions, let them know, you know, shared informed consent with them, let them know, like, hey, this is how your your your story will be used, this is where it will be published, people will read it, you know, make sure that people understand fully, you know, what it is that I'm here to gather and collect in my reporting. But, you know, once once table is said, then the conversation just flows naturally. And in my interviews, you know, I take a very personal and human approach to it. You know, I get emotional as I'm hearing these stories. You know, as as as, you know, folks are sharing their experiences with me and having visceral reactions. I also have, like, a visceral reaction with that because it's just not easy things to talk about, easy things. To hear right about, you know and so I just I approach it like a human. I approach it like a person. And also, like, they know who we are, they know that MLK50 is here, they know that we're in the community. It was very eye opening to just hear that pan pattern of of how people feel targeted by police here in Memphis.
0:11:58
This is the Laura Flanders show. I'm Laura It's that time of the month, time for our meet the BIPOC press media roundtable in partnership with URL media, a national network of independent media that's owned and operated by people of color. I'm joined by Sarah Lomax, URL cofounder and president and CEO of WURD, Pennsylvania's only black owned independent talk radio station. This month, we're joined by two journalists who've been reporting for black led outlets on two recent killings. One in Memphis of Tyre Nichols by local police, and the other just outside Atlanta of environmental activist Manuel Esteban Paez Terán in a Georgia state police raid that received considerably less attention. We're joined by report for America call member Britney Brown, a criminal justice and labor reporter for MLK fifty, Justice through June a nonprofit outlet in Memphis and Gavin Godfrey, the Atlanta editor for capital b, a national hub of local news scripts.
0:13:02
Next, what are the reactions that our guests are hearing to the idea that more training will help stop killings by police? That's coming up. You can find all of our meet the by pop press media roundtables in our archives at LauraFlanders.org, and don't forget that you can find links there or just sit back and watch the show as it plays out, as it does on television stations all across the country. And why not take a moment to subscribe to our newsletter to join the mailing list so that we can stay in touch with you. I'll meet the BIPOC press round table continues, but first, here's material by Marxist Love Disco Ensemble. From their self titled album. Do you think more training will help. And I wanna come to you on that too, Gavin. But first, Britney, you know, this talk of training, training, training when it's a training center in Atlanta that's the heart of the dispute there.
0:14:29
Twenty twenty, you know, in Memphis, in the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor Ahmad Arbery, the city also enacted different reforms and policies that were, you know, supposed to prevent an an incident like this happening. Memphis, police actually has the policy in place called Eight can't wait. And it's eight, like, BS deescalation techniques whenever there's an excessive use of force. Obviously, they did not follow those eight can't wait techniques. What about your take on that question, Gavin?
0:15:00
What we've seen in some in some studies especially in our reporting is that more training doesn't necessarily lead to less violent interactions between the community and police. And I think a lot of skepticism around this particular facility is that, you know, it's a training center that has it's gonna have burn towers with smoke billowing out. It's gonna have you know, a gun range where they're aspiring going all the time and, you know, the the community aspect of fact that, you know, how they're trying to kind of sell it as, you know, how it's gonna improve the training. Is that, oh, it's gonna be a community center. It's gonna be open to the public. There will be facilities on-site that the public can visit But, you know, I think that ignores the fact that in that area where it's located, it's predominantly black. That just means more police are going to be there And that just, honestly, from people we've spoken to, they're terrified by that. It gives them, you know, mental and emotional distress seeing that presence, they're very skeptical about, you know, you know, if the training facility really will speak to you know, that aspect of it, that community policing says that community had very little input. And residents we've spoken to have said that they have not been informed by either you know, the city which owns the land or Decap County where the land is actually located. So the Decap County CEO, Michael Thurman, and Atlanta mayor, Andre Dickens, have had a pretty tough time, I think, responding to, you know, a lot of questions and honestly anger from the public because it it we're not seeing the correlation, I think, between this massive facility and how it will not lead to more Richard Brooks happening.
0:16:35
One of the things we find within the URL network because we are a network of black and brown media organizations. We are deeply embedded and connected with our communities. And, you know, the things that we cover are also the things that are happening you know, to our in our lives, it's very closely connected. And so I wanted to find out from both of you what are some of the things that you are doing to take care of yourselves as you cover these incredibly traumatic you know, stories. My editor, first and foremost, you know, especially after the night that we covered, the protests and were out there. I occupying the I-fifty five bridge with protesters. The next day my editor gave me a call and was like, hey, you know, you need to take a days off, get some rash you've been working a lot of overtime. And so there's really that, like, firm understanding in in the mental toll that this type of coverage can happen because, you know, like you said, Sarah, it's not just things that we're covering, but these are things that are happening to our own communities that we're experiencing in living through as well. So we have a lot of conversation kind of just going through our emotions and our feelings and our thoughts. And we're really small, close to the team. So we have that space to really, you know, process things together as a team after you get it.
0:17:55
Now, corporately said that about setting boundaries because, you know, I have a team, a a very small team too of reporters, and I constantly remind them, like, you know, we're human, but our job is not natural. Right? We are running to trauma we're, you know, for better or worse, sometimes looking at footage that most people don't wanna look at. And to that point, I will say, you know, we did a a great report on Once the timing Nichols videos were announced they're gonna be released, we wrote a story about why you don't necessarily have to watch them. Right? Even if you are a journalist. There are ways to, you know, manage some of that.
0:18:28
To bring this point, capital needs is very driven by community voices. I think, what separates our coverage from local coverage in the city is that we are trying to find out how this affects the people, who are the most affected. Right? Most of our local news is talking to officials, law enforcement officials, and then getting a couple quotes and quips from protesters without a lot of context. And so you know, I just remind my team, you know, whenever you need I mean, whenever we need a minute, it's okay to take a break because, you know, what we're doing is very important, but at the same time, you know, I want them to feel, you know, confident and also just safe.
0:19:04
There's been conversation about the power dynamics with institutions like the police, whether you're black or white, on inflicted upon black bodies, but when you look at the discipline and the treatment of the officers when they are black as opposed to white. That becomes another question around, you know, does that mean that our criminal justice reform efforts are working and we are getting better outcomes around police brutality or is that just another example of a racialized dynamic at play when the officers are black because when you look at like George Floyd and you can go all the way back to to Rodney King. And you see that when there are white officers, it is a much it's a much different case in terms of how they're disciplined. So I wanted to see if both of you could speak to that dynamic. This you can arguably just say the entire notion or or or organizational police in American history was built on white supremacy right to suppress usually black votes back at the time. So the idea that black men can't be implicit in white supremacy We know that's not true. We actually have a story out of capital b today that says, you know, the black cop will not save you in that sense and that you know, what needs to change is, you know, systemic change. Right? You know, they are black or white living or working in a system that is geared toward using these type of tactics that often lead to, you know, people being seriously injured or dead. Do you think that the way that they were disciplined is different because they're black? I think it's both and is my response.
0:20:52
And let's set the table here a little bit about what's actually been going on in Memphis for the past year now. We're just kind of on the other side of electing a new district attorney, Steve Mulroy, who's the first Democratic attorney in Shelby County, the first Democratic DA in decades. And before DA Mulroy was in office, we had a Republican district attorney who during her tenure for a decade or so, she never charged an officer in any type of misconduct or excessive or excessive use of force or shooting or anything like that. And so we I think what we're seeing is not necessarily just a response from the police department, but a response from the city and the county at large. With the new district attorney bringing forth those charges immediately with, you know, with the black police chief and, you know, she often says that, you know, she under fans, the community's staying as a black woman, and, you know, all of those things. However, when that response happened, when they were immediately fired, when they were were immediately shocked, charged. I was not only thinking, like, okay. Well, this action was swift because they're black, right, but also this action was swift. So it must be really, really bad.
0:22:01
And as we saw the video, it was I wanna ask both of you about the sort of consent and democracy aspect of this. We all say it's about public safety. Right? But you just told us that in Atlanta, seventy percent of all those who testified about their opinions on this training center, COPC City, we're against it, but it's going ahead anyway. I guess I'm just constantly reminded of, you know, abolitionist Mariame Kaba who says we need to be asking different better questions. What better question, Gavin? It's a great question. I mean, you know, to to your to your point about the the people who responded and were in opposition. Our mayor just released a survey that, you know, says that residents actually wanted sixty nine percent were away. They don't tell you is that they had a two percent response rate of the survey that was put out in six hundred people just over six hundred people responded. We have no idea what the wake up of those folks are.
0:22:58
And so I think, you know, one question, you know, I would just like to ask, are there? You know, what are you listening? Right? I think it's been very clear that this is a very divisive issue, but also it's not so cut and dry in that, you know. I'm a guy who helps make policy, the city wants his policy, China accountability for the police. This is what that looks like to me, which shows, you know, our lawmakers aren't listening to what residents want out of that policy. What they would like to see, you know, talk us talk us cheap as we say.
0:23:30
And I think people are just tired of hearing that this is going to be a great thing. They want to see it in practice. And a long time ago Atlanta was a little more well known for some of its community policing efforts and we've gotten away from that. So, you know, I think the the biggest question I wanna ask is just are you listening to the people and how are you facilitating to British point? Are there other incidents happening in the city where we're trying to organize and heal together and talk about this? There's still no dialogue. It's they said, he said, she said, and I would just like to ask, why aren't we talking together with each other about this instead of Pat each other? Correct. Me?
0:24:03
For me, the better question to ask is, why are we? And this is a collectively continuing to bend over backwards and contort our minds and bodies to normalize this ongoing system of violence. Clearly, it is a system that only wills violence toward people as we see. And, you know, the the trend is going up and up and up. And it's it's not a solution. That is not what public safety is. And I think it's okay, and it actually should be normal, especially in media. To understand that this is not normal. This is not bringing forth safety for anyone. If entire communities are living in fear of police, then that means something is not working. And I think it's time that we start reporting and asking questions in that way, not from not a not from a, you know, vantage point of, you know, police are the are the solution to everything. But why are people feeling this way?
0:25:03
If we take a look back at history, I just wanna quote just some, you know, something that I read in a a book by historian Elizabeth Hinton. The book is titled America On Fire, and it takes a look back at the Uprise scenes in this country and sort of places it in its historical perspective of how the police sort of changed to respond to uprisings across this country, primarily black uprisings. And so what we know about Memphis is that in nineteen sixty eight, Dr. King was assassinated here. After his assassination, cities, you know, were in uprising across the country immediately after those waves of uprisings. We saw increased funding to police, increased militarization of police. And so what we're seeing right now of this over militarization of police is the direct legacy of the police being used as a forced to quail black a rebellion in black uprising to this ongoing sort of state violence.
0:25:58
It's so powerful that we're having this conversation with MLK fifty and capital B and me, word radio three black media outlets that are continuing a tradition of covering issues in very nuanced and complex ways for our communities. There are many issues that only we can cover because context really matters and our communities need to have outlets and voices and perspectives that are coming directly from our from the ground up. And from our people. I'm disheartened in many ways that we are having to tell the same story. I mean, maybe till had a position to show her son's battered, brutalized, body, Emmett Till's body as a way to like, a a a calling to the nation and an an awakening to the nation. And similarly, Tyree Nichols' mother was, like, yes, I want the video of his beating made public because we need to have massive change. And so it's it's disheartening on one hand But I think that the work that we're doing to bring visibility to these issues in different ways is incredibly important.
0:27:23
Well, I wanna thank you once again, Sarah, for convening a a fantastic conversation today, and I wanna remind our audience that if they wanna show some love, to those who are doing this reporting. They can find out how at our website and yours. Britney Gavin, thank you, and thank you for doing this difficult work. We send you much appreciation and love for your kindness and your curiosity, and Sarah, so you again in a month or two, I look forward to it. For more information on this week's show, check out our show notes, which we post every week to Patreon dot com. Yep. Go to Patreon dot com forward slash the LF show and find links to related articles and all the information that we researched to put together the program It's also where you'll get links to past episodes from our archives that relate to the topic and an invitation to watch the premiere every week on YouTube and chat in lifetime real with me, Laura Flanders. Sunday is eleven thirty AM eastern. While you're there on YouTube, don't forget to subscribe. And if you joining us on Patreon. Think about becoming a contributor.
0:28:33
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